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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The optional nature of men's lives

411 replies

cailindana · 24/01/2015 12:35

I was talking about this with DH recently and he agreed with much of what I said.

It strikes me that boys and men have very "optional" lives in comparison to girls and women and that this influences their whole approach to life. What I mean is, girls learn pretty early on that their choices will be restricted, that their options will be limited. From only being allowed to wear skirts and then told they mustn't show their knickers (thus removing the option to be active) to suddenly having to deal with periods and curtailing activities due to that, to then contending with the prospect of unwanted pregnancy and thus having restrictions on sexuality to then being told not to walk certain places not to do certain things for fear of being attacked and ultimately being told you "can't have it all" - ie choose work or children.

IMO, women (in general of course, not all) learn very quickly that there are consequences to things, that you can't always have what you want, that sometimes you just have to get on with it and face the fact that everything isn't perfect. I think that influences their approach to so many things in life from housework, to illness, to childrearing. Men on the other hand, always seem to have options open to them and I think that leads to a certain immaturity, a lack of acceptance that sometimes you can't have what you want. I think it has a bearing on how men approach things like fatherhood and the idea that now you don't have any choice but to knuckle down and accept your life is different - so many men seem to want to "opt out" and carry on as if nothing is different, thus leaving women to, as usual, take the hard road.

While I don't think it's right that women often end up carrying the burden I'm not sure it's necessarily a bad thing to have that maturity foisted on you. I think while women do lose out massively in the earlier years, especially when children are young, that maturity and that acceptance stands them in very good stead as they get older and ultimately they reap the rewards. I notice among older friends that women seem to come into their own in their 50s whereas men can't face that their options are now becoming limited and they no longer have the world open to them - hence mid-life crises etc. I think also because men expect options they tend to skirt on the edges of responsibility, never full accepting the hardship of, for example, parenthood, and thus ending up on the fringes as children get older and become true friends and companions. Thus women, who have been the stable guiding force in childhood, mucking in, organising, being the go-to person, reap the rewards of a close relationship with their adult children, whereas men, who focused on work, never really got their hands dirty with parenting, are now coming to retirement and the loss of that source of status but have not really jumped in with both feet in family life and so don't have that either. They are left with very little.

I am not saying the equality that exists is a good thing. What I'm saying I suppose is that while women look on enviously at men continuing their careers and never attending a parents' evening, they might do well to remember that the emotional toil and labour they put into their families is really and truly worth something. Jobs come and go, they give no love or longterm support. But children are for life, and being that person who always knows where the PE kit is is important, is special.

Men are missing out. They just don't realise that until it's too late.

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cailindana · 24/01/2015 14:49

Gosh I don't know where the grin came from. That should say re opting out.

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PetulaGordino · 24/01/2015 14:50

It was the colon wot done it I reckon

cailindana · 24/01/2015 14:50

e:

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cailindana · 24/01/2015 14:50

Sorry that's me mucking about. I'll stop now Blush

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PetulaGordino · 24/01/2015 14:51

:o

PetulaGordino · 24/01/2015 14:51

(That was me doing : o but without he space)

Stillwishihadabs · 24/01/2015 14:52

We are one of the on the surface equal couples. However dh does have more time consuming hobbies and will start "big projects" at the weekend without really checking what else needs to be done. I think men find it really difficult to come to terms with the fact that whilst doing childcare you can't do much else apart from domestic drudgery and you may well have nothing to show for it at the end of the day.

cailindana · 24/01/2015 14:52

Ah yes, I had it the wrong way round!

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funnyossity · 24/01/2015 14:53

My Mum had a lie in every morning while my Dad got me ready for school.

(He'd never changed a nappy though.)

I don't think I can add to this thread. Confused

PetulaGordino · 24/01/2015 14:56

Dp's dad refused to do nappies

Good job dp's mum was there all the time as not sure how he would have managed it otherwise

That's what the OP means by optional. Fortunately Dp is not of te same attitude

lifeissweet · 24/01/2015 14:58

I will probably not explain this very well, but I have had a similar thought recently.

I have two DCs by 2 different exes. And their attitudes to the children are so completely different.

Father of DS immediately took 50:50 custody. Not just custody, but parenting. He is entirely responsible for a lot of DS's life. He is a governor at his school, he does lunchboxes and uniform purchasing and doctor's appointments...the lot. Everything I do, he does too.

So that is what I came to expect of co-parenting.

Then I split up with DD's Dad and the experience has been nothing like the same.

His job involves antisocial hours and long shifts. In the 2 years before the split we argued nearly every week about how little he was around and how little involvement he had as a result of his job (just for balance, I am the higher earner. It wasn't as if he was struggling to put a roof over our heads - that was my job too)

Now he sees her every other weekend and two days in the week, which I am sure he thinks is great. He isn't very reliable. He often gets let down by staff and changes arrangements last minute at least once a week. I'm sick of it.

I just can't get my head around why it is ok for a man to 'parent' in that way. He think I am the default parent who is always available, always the one to do the thinking and the discipline and the mundane admin stuff - he just feeds her and puts her to bed a few times a week.

If I opted out of the organisation, or suddenly announced 'I can't look after DD tomorrow night. She's all yours' he would not take up the slack.

I think in that situation, as a mother, I would be getting a new job. As women do when they are faced with caring for a child - they make adjustments, the cut their hours, they change jobs. They expect to and are expected to.

There is no such expectation on men. And I think that's wrong.

Obviously, I am talking about one man in particular, but I do feel that his viewpoint is backed up by social norms. No one is surprised that he sees his DD two/three times a week. If it was the other way round eyebrows would be raised to the sky.

almondcakes · 24/01/2015 14:59

I don't think either family life or paid employment should be essential for everyone to create equal treatment. Not everyone has or wants children. Not every family has a father. Not every couple wants to split work and childcare 50/50.

Society should offer flexible working and people returning after being a SAHP or carer even if most of those needing that are women.

cailindana · 24/01/2015 15:01

That's a good example of what I mean life. An extreme version of that is how villified single mothers are. It's bizarre - the DM and their ilk target and shame the people who are there day in, day out doing all the donkey work and make no reference whatsoever to the fathers out there who have simply fucked off and never see their children. Because for men, fatherhood is optional even when the children already exist.

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cailindana · 24/01/2015 15:03

Perhaps a private life is a better word than family life almond - what I mean is an acceptance that all workers have a life outside of work, be that involving children, elderly parents, pets, volunteering or a hobby.

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scallopsrgreat · 24/01/2015 15:06

God I know loads of fathers who opt out. Most of my friends partners in fact. Many of the men at work. It is the little things, not the huge walking away things. Just like Petula describes her father doing. Little thing for him to opt out of, huge thing for his wife to have to cope with that every morning knowing her partner didn't care.

Mind you when it comes to bigger things too, men have much greater options to walk away as seen by figures from the CSA where something like 40% of fathers paying CSA have no contact with their children. So it maybe a minority but it is a sizeable minority. Personally don't think it is a minority when you look at the entire continuum.

It is much easier for men to opt out. They are less judged for it, it is minimised and often not even noticed or accepted.

And women having more choices about clothing or hairstyles? Why do you think that is? And what does that actually give us? Power, status, respect?

almondcakes · 24/01/2015 15:06

Maybe some of those single motherschose that, and don't want to share care with a father. Which would put you and the Mail on the same side, assuming in one way or another that the 'problem' of single mothers is one to be resolved through involvement of a father, rather than supporting alternative models to man plus woman plus kids is a family.

funnyossity · 24/01/2015 15:07

In the 1950s it would have been rare for a Dad to change a nappy. My point is that beyond the baby months which as I have said have changed, the Dads I knew where fully involved in their kids lives. The distant paterfamilias was also a product of class.

Then again I am aware of the "dog whistle" signs of the dead beat dad type in the area I grew up in, less easy for me to spot and avoid the losers when they wear (to me) the uniform of middle-classness.

JugglingFromHereToThere · 24/01/2015 15:08

"Because for men fatherhood is optional even when the children already exist"

What a great sentence - sums up a lot of things!

almondcakes · 24/01/2015 15:09

A hobby is not equivalent to childcare CD! Mothers providing childcare need flexible working as a priorty in a way that people with hobbies do not.

cailindana · 24/01/2015 15:10

I don't think single mothers are a "problem" at all. What I was pointing out is that fingers are pointed at single mothers as though they are a "problem" when nothing at all is said about the "problem" of men who have children and never see them or pay a penny towards them. I agree there are situations where it is absolutely the right thing for the father not to have any involvement - especially when there's abuse - but I would disagree with any notion that a woman should be able to choose to cut a father out of a child's life if he is willing and able to be involved.

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PetulaGordino · 24/01/2015 15:11

Dp's brother was born in the 1990s, when his dad was refusing to change nappies. My grandfather in the 1950s was one of those rare men at that time who did change nappies and do bath times and cooking.

scallopsrgreat · 24/01/2015 15:13

You know, all these men I am talking about would say they are fully involved in their children's lives. But they aren't. They can walk away from the bits they don't want to do.

cailindana · 24/01/2015 15:15

My DH was absolutely convinced he was a good father. He now thinks he was beyond rubbish and, while he does feel ashamed of it, he has thanked me on numerous occasions for showing him what true parenting is as he feels a lot happier now that he just mucks in. He reckons it was actually more stressful trying to avoid things.

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scallopsrgreat · 24/01/2015 15:18

The courts bend over backwards to accommodate children seeing their fathers, yet still a sizeable chunk of them choose not to. The problem is not women refusing them access.

scallopsrgreat · 24/01/2015 15:19

Oh my father would have said he was a good father too. But he devolved pretty much all responsibility on to my mother.