The optional nature of men's lives

[cailindana]

I was talking about this with DH recently and he agreed with much of what I said.

It strikes me that boys and men have very "optional" lives in comparison to girls and women and that this influences their whole approach to life. What I mean is, girls learn pretty early on that their choices will be restricted, that their options will be limited. From only being allowed to wear skirts and then told they mustn't show their knickers (thus removing the option to be active) to suddenly having to deal with periods and curtailing activities due to that, to then contending with the prospect of unwanted pregnancy and thus having restrictions on sexuality to then being told not to walk certain places not to do certain things for fear of being attacked and ultimately being told you "can't have it all" - ie choose work or children.

IMO, women (in general of course, not all) learn very quickly that there are consequences to things, that you can't always have what you want, that sometimes you just have to get on with it and face the fact that everything isn't perfect. I think that influences their approach to so many things in life from housework, to illness, to childrearing. Men on the other hand, always seem to have options open to them and I think that leads to a certain immaturity, a lack of acceptance that sometimes you can't have what you want. I think it has a bearing on how men approach things like fatherhood and the idea that now you don't have any choice but to knuckle down and accept your life is different - so many men seem to want to "opt out" and carry on as if nothing is different, thus leaving women to, as usual, take the hard road.

While I don't think it's right that women often end up carrying the burden I'm not sure it's necessarily a bad thing to have that maturity foisted on you. I think while women do lose out massively in the earlier years, especially when children are young, that maturity and that acceptance stands them in very good stead as they get older and ultimately they reap the rewards. I notice among older friends that women seem to come into their own in their 50s whereas men can't face that their options are now becoming limited and they no longer have the world open to them - hence mid-life crises etc. I think also because men expect options they tend to skirt on the edges of responsibility, never full accepting the hardship of, for example, parenthood, and thus ending up on the fringes as children get older and become true friends and companions. Thus women, who have been the stable guiding force in childhood, mucking in, organising, being the go-to person, reap the rewards of a close relationship with their adult children, whereas men, who focused on work, never really got their hands dirty with parenting, are now coming to retirement and the loss of that source of status but have not really jumped in with both feet in family life and so don't have that either. They are left with very little.

I am not saying the equality that exists is a good thing. What I'm saying I suppose is that while women look on enviously at men continuing their careers and never attending a parents' evening, they might do well to remember that the emotional toil and labour they put into their families is really and truly worth something. Jobs come and go, they give no love or longterm support. But children are for life, and being that person who always knows where the PE kit is is important, is special.

Men are missing out. They just don't realise that until it's too late.

My dad's rationale re leaving for work early to avoid getting ready for school stresses was that he had a long day at work and didn't want I arrive stressed. But it was ok for mum to arrive at work upset and stressed following three separate tantrums from two children before 8am and then see her patients all day

My father didn't work for years and years but he still took no responsibility for the nitty gritty of childcare - he never once in my entire childhood took me to the doctor. My mum worked fulltime and she still did all laundry, all appointments, all school stuff. He was a particularly bad case though.

Interestingly Petula, my DH said he genuinely believed childcare was easier for me because I was a woman. I wonder how many other men believe that - ie I can't do mornings because it's too hard but you can because you're a woman and it's easier for you. I've often seen situations where men claim the SAHM does nothing all week but then they refuse to do childcare at the weekend as it's "too hard." How can it be "nothing" all week but "too hard" at the weekend? It makes no sense.

A lot of this applies to my DF. He did do some cooking and basic housework but didn't organise my birthday parties or things like that.

My parents got divorced after 27 years and yes my mum has now bloomed whereas my DF has floundered.

I actually find it very hard to say these things about my dad, because he is and always was a kind, generous, warm father who was involved when he wasn't on-call and cared deeply and my instinct is to defend that to the hilt. But I can't ignore how much he just expected my mother to just take on and fit her life around his and the children, including opting out of those aspects of parenting that he didn't like.

Strong links into socially-expected and required work patterns then aren't there. I've just been saying elsewhere that the whole work culture is changing, needs to change, under economic factors as well. Convergence of memes .

Something I said to my DH Jackie, and he agreed with, is that the optional thing is actually a disadvantage in the long run. If you're never actually forced or expected to engage with the hard parts you just won't - we all choose the easy life. But then you just don't learn how to deal with the slings and arrows of life, you are constantly skirting around avoiding things. If the person you delegate responsibility to then leaves, you're lost. Or if your structure, ie work, ends you're at a loose end - you simply haven't engaged with life enough to make your own way.

Cailin I expect my dad feels that way too. He isn't very good with extreme emotion, so of course mum was responsible for the emotional wellbeing of the family, but it comes more "naturally" to her apparently - but is that the case? If one parent refuses to take on one aspect of parenting then the other has to take that up unless they have no sense of responsibility. And of course that is what you see on many threads on here "if I don't do it it doesn't get done" - it's optional for many men but not for women

That is totally my DF. He's in financial trouble now as he just expects money to keep flowing in and him to just keep spending it. He won't do the work involved. It's very frustrating for the rest of us!

Oh dear Jackie - and do you feel as though you ought to be taking on those responsibilities that he can't handle, as default female no that you're mother isn't there? (I hope not, but I think it can often happen)

That made no sense

"Default female now that your mother isn't there"

Lightning I agree about working culture, but also I think the idea of a "normal" family / traditional home life etc needs to change too. Assumptions made by society about what the ideal home life should be is mirrored in those assumptions about working patterns

Yup. Rethink required.

My best friend's DH has no idea how to manage money. If my bf died or left he'd be properly screwed.

Cailin, sorry for the delay. Yes, I think we are in broad agreement about a rebalancing needed within society. Probably moreso in the UK that other western European countries. We have a very odd attitude to the work/life balance. I would not have missed bringing up my kids for anything, even the messy bits.

The optional thing is part of the 'tell me what to do and I'll fo it' attitude also IMO. The attitude is 'it's really your job but I'll deign to do it if you plan the whole thing' - it's opting out by stealth. Someone has to think and plan, why not the man?

Petula- I don't do any 'wife work' for my DF, no.
Dp, mum & me have all had to get involved to keep him afloat but it's often like having a teenager!

Many women who do return to work in the same role/same hours after having children are often written off. It happened to me and it's happened to a lot of my friends. Many women I know have dropped their hours because they've been passed over for promotion and their careers have effectively stalled.

This to me just illustrates the fundamental difference between men and women having children. It's sort of incidental to a lot of men's lives but central to most women's. And I know plenty of couples where the man doesn't know where their children's shoes are. That model is still very prevalent.

Worse, the relationship board here is full of women in LTRs with men who take little or no responsibility for their children. So it is very, very common - depressingly so.

Along those lines Odd, it drives me mad when I see women saving all their money in preparation for maternity leave, while their partner saves nothing, on the understanding that they will have to continue to contribute financially while on ML. Once on ML the women then do almost all childcare and housework. So, essentially the man's life is practically undisturbed by the baby, in fact they gain a free housekeeper as well as a lovely baby, while the woman has to go through pregnancy while saving, endure childbirth and the changes it brings, leave work and lose some if not most of their salary, breastfeed, suffer sleep deprivation, adjust to a whole new routine and the lack of variety associated with being at home with a baby, as well as being general servant. There's a real sense that having children is something women do and must plan for and deal with, while men accommodate it and women must be grateful for that.

And don't get me started on the idea that men work and so must not be disturbed by the baby. If he's a pilot or a surgeon maybe, but if he's in an office job then there is no excuse for expecting a tired new mother to do without sleep.

While I know some hands-on fathers, including a couple who have been the SAHP, I do think they get a lot more choice. More than one of my male colleagues has opted out of seeing the nativity or special assemblies, claiming to their spouses they couldn't get the time off work, when in fact they never even asked, because they just chose not to, because it won't be fun. I can't imagine a woman bragging about it in the same way, even if she did chose to miss a school thing.

Also, I know more than one man who thinks they have a right to a lads' holiday, leaving their wives with the children; I wouldn't have an issue with this if their wives had the same option if a non-family holiday, but that's far less likely to happen. One man I know refuses to do the family holiday, because it's too hard work and he doesn't enjoy it. But it's fine for his wife to have to deal with them for a week away in a caravan on her own.

I remember very few arguments between my parents (they did have them, just not usually where we could witness them. ) But I do remember one one summer, when I was mid-teens, Mum crying and saying she might as well be a single parent - and she did do most of the practical parenting - school forms, appointments, clothes, cooking, etc. Part of me did think that Dad was always a farmer, she always knew what harvest and dairying was like, and the parameters haven't changed - but I can also see where she was coming from - he never had to think about the planning and logistics. This was partly a generational thing, and I think it will take a bit longer before a majority of men are brought up with much more hands-on Dads who do accept tooth-brushing is down to them and that watching the children doesn’t default to women - but I think it is improving.

That argument made a big impression on me.

There seems to be an acceptance that women's lives will change entirely when children come along, in fact it's so accepted it's not even acknowledged, whereas it seems accepted that men's lives must not be disturbed, they're far too important.

Some of these stories are crazy. Going on holiday on your own with kids because he doesnt want to come?

I recognise a lot of what you describe amongst my friends, OP. I think some of it is down to the mindset that women's lives have changed (so, great they can now have careers and all that and earn their own keep) but without the acknowledgement that men's lives will therefore have to change alongside that (oh, so they won't have time to look after my children and I might have to do an equal share of that). The slight change to men's roles (yes, I can change nappies and cook - my Dad didn't even know where the hoover was kept!) is seen as sufficient. It's remarkable that society seems to have decreed that a massive change in the role of women will only need to be countered by a small change in the role of men. I think this is what is behind a lot of frustration in attitudes to feminism - beginning with, "but we let you vote and things, what on earth do you mean that we have to let you run the country too?" - and so on and so on.

It was more common a generation ago.

I would say two but it would depend on where you live and how old you are and how long you deem a generation. Just looking at public behaviour younger fathers are far more engaged than the fathers of twenty five years ago.