Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The optional nature of men's lives

411 replies

cailindana · 24/01/2015 12:35

I was talking about this with DH recently and he agreed with much of what I said.

It strikes me that boys and men have very "optional" lives in comparison to girls and women and that this influences their whole approach to life. What I mean is, girls learn pretty early on that their choices will be restricted, that their options will be limited. From only being allowed to wear skirts and then told they mustn't show their knickers (thus removing the option to be active) to suddenly having to deal with periods and curtailing activities due to that, to then contending with the prospect of unwanted pregnancy and thus having restrictions on sexuality to then being told not to walk certain places not to do certain things for fear of being attacked and ultimately being told you "can't have it all" - ie choose work or children.

IMO, women (in general of course, not all) learn very quickly that there are consequences to things, that you can't always have what you want, that sometimes you just have to get on with it and face the fact that everything isn't perfect. I think that influences their approach to so many things in life from housework, to illness, to childrearing. Men on the other hand, always seem to have options open to them and I think that leads to a certain immaturity, a lack of acceptance that sometimes you can't have what you want. I think it has a bearing on how men approach things like fatherhood and the idea that now you don't have any choice but to knuckle down and accept your life is different - so many men seem to want to "opt out" and carry on as if nothing is different, thus leaving women to, as usual, take the hard road.

While I don't think it's right that women often end up carrying the burden I'm not sure it's necessarily a bad thing to have that maturity foisted on you. I think while women do lose out massively in the earlier years, especially when children are young, that maturity and that acceptance stands them in very good stead as they get older and ultimately they reap the rewards. I notice among older friends that women seem to come into their own in their 50s whereas men can't face that their options are now becoming limited and they no longer have the world open to them - hence mid-life crises etc. I think also because men expect options they tend to skirt on the edges of responsibility, never full accepting the hardship of, for example, parenthood, and thus ending up on the fringes as children get older and become true friends and companions. Thus women, who have been the stable guiding force in childhood, mucking in, organising, being the go-to person, reap the rewards of a close relationship with their adult children, whereas men, who focused on work, never really got their hands dirty with parenting, are now coming to retirement and the loss of that source of status but have not really jumped in with both feet in family life and so don't have that either. They are left with very little.

I am not saying the equality that exists is a good thing. What I'm saying I suppose is that while women look on enviously at men continuing their careers and never attending a parents' evening, they might do well to remember that the emotional toil and labour they put into their families is really and truly worth something. Jobs come and go, they give no love or longterm support. But children are for life, and being that person who always knows where the PE kit is is important, is special.

Men are missing out. They just don't realise that until it's too late.

OP posts:
creambun2014 · 24/01/2015 12:39

I cant say I have faced any of those. Surely it is how you look at situations? Nothing has ever curtailed me from doing what I want either in childhood or adulthood.

Your description of a dad sounds like a useless one.

MarshaBrady · 24/01/2015 12:41

I don't recognise your description of a father amongst my friends either.

All of the ones I know are very involved. Ok a couple may work long hours, but outside that they are mucking in.

creambun2014 · 24/01/2015 12:42

I work outside the home but still nowhere the pe kit is and 'get my hands dirty'. I think the type of dads you described probably never really wanted a family.

cailindana · 24/01/2015 12:42

I am talking about useless dads, cream, of which there are many. Obviously if a man does muck in and get involved then it's a different story.

OP posts:
cailindana · 24/01/2015 12:44

Also, cream, if you feel your choices were never curtailed then I would think you see no need for feminism in which case my argument will not speak to you.

OP posts:
OFrabjousDay · 24/01/2015 12:45

It's great that you feel that way creambun, but it's not a typical experience for most women and girls in this country, even less in other countries.

I know what you mean cailindana. I've always made sure DH pitched in, not only to share the burden, but also to make sure he developed a similarly close relationship with our dcs. Of course, it was reliant on DH being willing to make the effort, which he was.

cailindana · 24/01/2015 12:47

DH and I had a serious issue after our second DC was born, with him opting out as she was such a tough baby. I gave him a swift kick up the arse (not literally) and he has said me doing that, me basically saying "it is tough but you have no option but to do it," has massively improved his relationship with the children, and he is extremely grateful for it.

OP posts:
OFrabjousDay · 24/01/2015 12:48

Xposts. I know plenty of fathers who opt out.

creambun2014 · 24/01/2015 12:51

Obviously if a mother or a father doesnt get involved then they wont have a close relationship with their children when they are older.

cailindana · 24/01/2015 12:51

When I talk about "opting out" I don't just mean men who get a woman pregnant and simply walk away I'm talking about a continuum, from that sort of totally uninterested, absent dad up to the dad who works hard, long hours, very invested in his job, adores his kids and is very kind, gentle and loving but who doesn't know the names of his children's teachers, couldn't pick a single one of his children's friends out of a lineup, has no idea what school dinners cost, has never once seen a nativity play. The kind of dad who is a dad in name and intention but not in action. My DH was very much like that, but has changed enormously and the difference it makes is amazing.

OP posts:
cailindana · 24/01/2015 12:53

Yes cream but how often is it that the mother doesn't get involved? It does happen, of course, but because society expects mothers to be involved there isn't that option for women to switch off - schools, relatives, friends etc expect them to know the minutiae of their children's lives, whereas men can be called a "good dad" and still hardly know a single detail of their children's lives.

OP posts:
creambun2014 · 24/01/2015 12:53

I agree both descriptions sound like complete failures as a parent

creambun2014 · 24/01/2015 12:56

I do not understand how a man could act like that unless they really didnt want children or they werent nice people. It wouldnt matter to me whether they had changed as what kind of men would act like that in the first place?

cailindana · 24/01/2015 12:57

But isn't it the case in our society cream, that it is so much more acceptable for a man not to get involved in his children's lives than it is for a woman? As in, it really isn't an option for women to switch off (not that they would necessarily want to) because they are the ones who are asked "who's looking after the kids?" when out and about, they are the ones who are expected to take leave after the birth, they are the ones that the school engages with. Whereas it is acceptable for a man to take only a week or two weeks after the birth, to go straight back into working 60 hours a week with a newborn at home, to not engage with the details of weaning (beyond being told what to feed the baby) or potty training (beyond knowing that it's happening) or the first day at school.

OP posts:
cailindana · 24/01/2015 12:57

Do you genuinely not know a single man who works long hours and leaves most of the childrearing to the mum?

OP posts:
theendoftheendoftheend · 24/01/2015 12:57

You've just described my Dfather bless him. I think you make some good points and I can certainly see where are you are coming from.

MarshaBrady · 24/01/2015 12:58

It was more common a generation ago.

Yops · 24/01/2015 12:58

One thing I have learned from lurking on here is that it's very unwelcome for men to try to speak about the experiences of women - what it must be like, the experiences you have, your perspective on life, how you are treated and the expectations placed upon you simply as a consequence of your gender.

And yet you feel that you have enough insight into the phenomenon of 'being a man' that you are able to sum up a lifetime lived, from childhood to old age. Interesting.

If this is a thought experiment, to prompt discussion, and you are prepared to be told if and when you are wrong, fair enough. I can see the value in that. If this is anything else, may I be the first to say, what a load of bollocks.

stargirl1701 · 24/01/2015 12:59

I disagree. I wasn't raised as you describe. I have found my options limitless until I had children. That has really exposed a gender divide to me.

creambun2014 · 24/01/2015 12:59

It appears common in mn circles but in real life definitely not. I think many middle class men dont want to be fathers if they act like this.

Taking one or two weeks after birth before returning to work has nothing to do with not engaging in the way you describe. It is just excuses from not nice 'men'

cailindana · 24/01/2015 13:00

Fair enough Yops. I was drawing on the experience of my DH and of a few older men that I know (my own dad included) but I accept that I can't speak for all men.

It is certainly not the case that all men opt out of fatherhood. I have to say though that my own DH did it, and at least three other fathers I know also did it (and continue to do so).

OP posts:
cailindana · 24/01/2015 13:01

Star - so were you never in the situation where you didn't walk home alone in the dark for fear of being attacked?

OP posts:
creambun2014 · 24/01/2015 13:01

How did I know this would involved older men? Hmm

MarshaBrady · 24/01/2015 13:01

I feel surrounded by very involved fathers. At the school, with their dc at swimming lessons, every where.

They seem to put in a load of effort.

creambun2014 · 24/01/2015 13:04

Op I would worry that you see this as normal and you are a lot more forgiving than I am. I hope that your dh has changed significantly and nor just doing the absolute basics you describe above.

Swipe left for the next trending thread