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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The optional nature of men's lives

411 replies

cailindana · 24/01/2015 12:35

I was talking about this with DH recently and he agreed with much of what I said.

It strikes me that boys and men have very "optional" lives in comparison to girls and women and that this influences their whole approach to life. What I mean is, girls learn pretty early on that their choices will be restricted, that their options will be limited. From only being allowed to wear skirts and then told they mustn't show their knickers (thus removing the option to be active) to suddenly having to deal with periods and curtailing activities due to that, to then contending with the prospect of unwanted pregnancy and thus having restrictions on sexuality to then being told not to walk certain places not to do certain things for fear of being attacked and ultimately being told you "can't have it all" - ie choose work or children.

IMO, women (in general of course, not all) learn very quickly that there are consequences to things, that you can't always have what you want, that sometimes you just have to get on with it and face the fact that everything isn't perfect. I think that influences their approach to so many things in life from housework, to illness, to childrearing. Men on the other hand, always seem to have options open to them and I think that leads to a certain immaturity, a lack of acceptance that sometimes you can't have what you want. I think it has a bearing on how men approach things like fatherhood and the idea that now you don't have any choice but to knuckle down and accept your life is different - so many men seem to want to "opt out" and carry on as if nothing is different, thus leaving women to, as usual, take the hard road.

While I don't think it's right that women often end up carrying the burden I'm not sure it's necessarily a bad thing to have that maturity foisted on you. I think while women do lose out massively in the earlier years, especially when children are young, that maturity and that acceptance stands them in very good stead as they get older and ultimately they reap the rewards. I notice among older friends that women seem to come into their own in their 50s whereas men can't face that their options are now becoming limited and they no longer have the world open to them - hence mid-life crises etc. I think also because men expect options they tend to skirt on the edges of responsibility, never full accepting the hardship of, for example, parenthood, and thus ending up on the fringes as children get older and become true friends and companions. Thus women, who have been the stable guiding force in childhood, mucking in, organising, being the go-to person, reap the rewards of a close relationship with their adult children, whereas men, who focused on work, never really got their hands dirty with parenting, are now coming to retirement and the loss of that source of status but have not really jumped in with both feet in family life and so don't have that either. They are left with very little.

I am not saying the equality that exists is a good thing. What I'm saying I suppose is that while women look on enviously at men continuing their careers and never attending a parents' evening, they might do well to remember that the emotional toil and labour they put into their families is really and truly worth something. Jobs come and go, they give no love or longterm support. But children are for life, and being that person who always knows where the PE kit is is important, is special.

Men are missing out. They just don't realise that until it's too late.

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cailindana · 27/01/2015 23:20

None of the optional dads I know fit that bill DWH, although I definitely know they do exist. My own dad has been unemployed most of his life, DH's dad had a 9-5 job, bf's dh works 8-4, my own DH's job involves some travelling but is extremely flexible - now that he's finally stepped up he takes every Friday afternoon off to do childcare so I can work - other friend's dh is unemployed and final optional dad also has a 9-5.
I feel very sorry for dads who are stuck on a career treadmill, missing out on their kids. They are as much a victim of the system as any woman. But I'm not talking about those dads - I'm talking about ones who simply opt out of being true parents. Who, like my DH, falsely use the treadmill excuse to escape responsibility.

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FloraFox · 27/01/2015 23:35

it's very clear that none of these women think that bringing some money in the house in their responsibility at all.

Are you talking about the women on that thread, TheFriar? I skimmed it and most of the responses were talking about generally not needing to work, not that their DH's were bringing in the money. Lots of talk of lottery wins.

I think if you ask the exact question to most men, the answers would be very similar.

DadWasHere · 28/01/2015 00:22

I'm talking about ones who simply opt out of being true parents. Who, like my DH, falsely use the treadmill excuse to escape responsibility.

What feminism should work toward is a model which presses men into more early bonding time with their infant child, meaning formalised paternal leave, or risk fostering the very thing women complain of latter, disengaged fathers. What’s more it should be actively pressed on new fathers, not simply offered, because if they get the idea its merely optional they will automatically resist it in their new 'father must provide' weighted head-space.

PuffinsAreFictitious · 28/01/2015 06:48

Anything else feminism should do for men?

Where on the list would you like us to put that?

cailindana · 28/01/2015 06:50

I think many men, including my DH, resist being a full parent because of the inherent misogyny jn society that say boys can't have baby dolls or push a toy pram. Boys are taught from dah one that childcare is women's work and not for them. My own DH has said he unconsciously resisted being the organised parent as it felt 'wrong.' There's no point IMO in forcing men to take on responsibility - the underlying attitude must be tackled. And feminism does do that.

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ApocalypseThen · 28/01/2015 07:15

I don't think it's necessarily an active choice - there's an assumption that mam is there. I don't think it occurs to them that it's an active choice by the mother to be present any more than it did with their own mother.

I think you posted once about the responsibility of caring, cailin, and I think your point is relevant here too.

cailindana · 28/01/2015 07:25

I agree, a lot of it is subconscious Apocalypse. One of the oddest things DH has said is that he truly believed childcare was automatically easier for me because I'm a woman. This was in spite of seeing with his own eyes how much I was struggling. All of the evidence right in front of him didn't override his conditioning.

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YonicScrewdriver · 28/01/2015 07:52

DWH, I would like to see a "use it or lose it" period of paternity leave as per some countries, where the 12 m leave can be split any way the couple chooses but the total leave becomes 13m if the man takes at least 1 m.

It's interesting that you think that's a "job" of feminism though. Isn't that perpetuating the perception that the "arrangement" of child caring is women's work, even if the campaign is related to men's activities?

Yops · 28/01/2015 08:43

Where do we draw the line between someone being conditioned, and them just being a selfish twat?

cailindana · 28/01/2015 09:33

That's something I've struggled with Yops. I reached the end if my tether with DH, and I was seriously considering separation. Since that point DH has honestly faced up to his thinking, owned up to it and changed it. That takes character IMO. He isn't selfish but he has suffered from Mr Always Right Syndrome. It's served him well in some ways but it doesn't work in a relationship. He sees that. I still struggle to trust him but so far what I can see is genuine change.

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cheminotte · 28/01/2015 17:02

Yonic - yes I completely agree. A month of sole charge should really give the other parent (ok, mostly dad) a real chance to understand what the role involves. This should be in addition to the 2 weeks paternity and hopefully the bigger companies can give enhanced pay. In companies I have worked were paternity leave is on full pay all the men take it.

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