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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The optional nature of men's lives

411 replies

cailindana · 24/01/2015 12:35

I was talking about this with DH recently and he agreed with much of what I said.

It strikes me that boys and men have very "optional" lives in comparison to girls and women and that this influences their whole approach to life. What I mean is, girls learn pretty early on that their choices will be restricted, that their options will be limited. From only being allowed to wear skirts and then told they mustn't show their knickers (thus removing the option to be active) to suddenly having to deal with periods and curtailing activities due to that, to then contending with the prospect of unwanted pregnancy and thus having restrictions on sexuality to then being told not to walk certain places not to do certain things for fear of being attacked and ultimately being told you "can't have it all" - ie choose work or children.

IMO, women (in general of course, not all) learn very quickly that there are consequences to things, that you can't always have what you want, that sometimes you just have to get on with it and face the fact that everything isn't perfect. I think that influences their approach to so many things in life from housework, to illness, to childrearing. Men on the other hand, always seem to have options open to them and I think that leads to a certain immaturity, a lack of acceptance that sometimes you can't have what you want. I think it has a bearing on how men approach things like fatherhood and the idea that now you don't have any choice but to knuckle down and accept your life is different - so many men seem to want to "opt out" and carry on as if nothing is different, thus leaving women to, as usual, take the hard road.

While I don't think it's right that women often end up carrying the burden I'm not sure it's necessarily a bad thing to have that maturity foisted on you. I think while women do lose out massively in the earlier years, especially when children are young, that maturity and that acceptance stands them in very good stead as they get older and ultimately they reap the rewards. I notice among older friends that women seem to come into their own in their 50s whereas men can't face that their options are now becoming limited and they no longer have the world open to them - hence mid-life crises etc. I think also because men expect options they tend to skirt on the edges of responsibility, never full accepting the hardship of, for example, parenthood, and thus ending up on the fringes as children get older and become true friends and companions. Thus women, who have been the stable guiding force in childhood, mucking in, organising, being the go-to person, reap the rewards of a close relationship with their adult children, whereas men, who focused on work, never really got their hands dirty with parenting, are now coming to retirement and the loss of that source of status but have not really jumped in with both feet in family life and so don't have that either. They are left with very little.

I am not saying the equality that exists is a good thing. What I'm saying I suppose is that while women look on enviously at men continuing their careers and never attending a parents' evening, they might do well to remember that the emotional toil and labour they put into their families is really and truly worth something. Jobs come and go, they give no love or longterm support. But children are for life, and being that person who always knows where the PE kit is is important, is special.

Men are missing out. They just don't realise that until it's too late.

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Bonsoir · 24/01/2015 14:15

Feminism has given me fantastic opportunities and will continue to do so. And gives fantastic opportunities to my DD.

The one thing I will fight to the last is a situation where women are denied those choices and opportunities.

Yops · 24/01/2015 14:15

Hmm. Some valid points in here. And also some odd criticisms. Working long hours, you say? Possibly dirty, hazardous work? Possibly antisocial hours? Possibly putting in more hours than strictly necessary, in order to keep that job, because that is what companies expect? Possibly working himself into ill-health or an early grave?

And putting up shelves? The bastards.....

Of course, some men are arseholes. Some are selfish. Some are stupid. Some are mean. But I think that you have to be aware that this is MN, and this is FWR. And much as it may not be a popular view, there are two sides to most situations.

Bonsoir · 24/01/2015 14:15

No. But a movement that suggests that they are failing as human beings if they don't want to do so is aping men.

cailindana · 24/01/2015 14:16

I'm confused though Bonsoir - if women have more choices than men then why is feminism needed?

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cailindana · 24/01/2015 14:17

Who says that women are failing if they don't ape men?

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cailindana · 24/01/2015 14:18

Could you develop that a bit Yops? I think I understand what you mean but I'd be interested to hear more.

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almondcakes · 24/01/2015 14:23

I don't see a contradiction between almost all of what Bonsoir is saying and feminism.

Yes, there is a need for more femalesin politics, because they make better decisions for women (according to UN research) and children. But those women should be drawn from groups like former SAHMs and carers, not all business
people.

But most people in the workplace do ordinary jobs and many women would prefer to be with their kids.

There is a lack of positive representations of SAHMs in the media.

OmnipotentQueenOfTheUniverse · 24/01/2015 14:25

But if I like to do things, or am interested in things, that are deemed by society to be "masculine", then does that mean I am aping men, or just being myself?

I would say surely that society deems what things the sexes do and want to do and are good at and this is restrictive. Men who get involved more in childcare aren't deemed to be "aping women" are they? Although sometimes and by some people that choice is viewed as "odd" which is something that needs to change.

I don't get the "aping men" idea. Not when it comes to things like work and leisure which are all constructed really.

OmnipotentQueenOfTheUniverse · 24/01/2015 14:26

But I'd rather work full-time because I enjoy it.

That's not "aping" that's being in the happy position of choosing what i want to do so hurrah for feminism and where it's got us so far + my fortunate personal circumstances...

Nothing to do with wanting to be a man (be like a man?).

DH would like to be at home with the kids. Maybe he secretly wants to be a woman.

God I hate gender roles.

cailindana · 24/01/2015 14:30

I agree Queen. The whole notion that by being in power you are "aping men" is entirely anti-feminist in my view. You are not aping anyone, you are just doing what you want to do and adding your voice to the ones that shape the world. The fact is that more women do need to be part of the powers that shape the world, otherwise we will continue to be sidelined. I would argue, Bonsoir, that the system, which expects workers, especially those in power, to work long hours and be away from their families, is wrong, for both women and men. I have absolutely nothing against anyone being a SAHP - I was for a while and now I work very part time, so am a SAHP for much of the week. I don't consider myself or any other woman or man who stays at home with children a failure.

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creambun2014 · 24/01/2015 14:31

I went back to work at two weeks twice and I will admit dh does the vast majority of the cooking and cleaning. I do however still do night feeds and take the children out and know everything about their lives. There is no excuse for a man not to regardless of if he works.

almondcakes · 24/01/2015 14:32

Society is structured to value masculine things rather than feminine things. Of course individualwomen will like some masculine things.

The issue is when these things are seen as better and being a SAHM or other feminine role as worse.

cailindana · 24/01/2015 14:35

That's something that feminism tackles almond.

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OmnipotentQueenOfTheUniverse · 24/01/2015 14:36

My DH does a lot - more than me - to do with children type stuff. I bear the brunt of the nuts and bolts organising. It works for us. Although I do note that I am the one who has to keep everything in my head to make sure nothing gets missed, I understand that is quite usual even in relationships that are more equal on the surface IYSWIM.

I do know quite a few couples where the man does fuck all to do with the house or children. Some are sort of unreconstructed working class types and some are not originally from the UK. Round here I would say though there is a high % of women working out of the home and a high % of dads very involved and a high % of GPs also. It's an expensive area and 2 working parents are the norm and it's a bit "all hands to the pumps" childcare costs a bomb too.

OmnipotentQueenOfTheUniverse · 24/01/2015 14:38

When I say "unreconstructed working class types" I mean friends who work in manual roles and who come home and sit on the sofa and drink beer and have lie-ins at the weekend and then watch the footie with more beer.

I suspect that I have non working class friends who behave this way too but they probably keep it under wraps a bit!

Yops · 24/01/2015 14:39

Cailin, my mum and dad are/were the same age. My dad died ten years ago. My mum is still full of life, full of beans, has a full and happy life, well into her 70's. My dad died within two years of retiring, out of the blue, of heart failure. His job required working shifts and being called out all over the UK in the middle of the night.

Disturbed sleep and shift patterns are known to be detrimental to health and longevity. But he did it, because it was his job, and someone had to do it. And all of his colleagues were men. And so many of them have died and left widows behind. Ditto mining, the steel industry, oil exploration etc etc. I'd be interested to see figures for the gender split of sufferers from asbestosis, for example.

Please don't see this as a 'poor menz' diatribe. It isn't. I am aware that female-dominated job roles like nursing also involve shitty hours, low pay and so on. But these factors need to be considered when weighing up just what a breeze men's lives are.

OmnipotentQueenOfTheUniverse · 24/01/2015 14:40

I don't know any women who have children and sit on the sofa drinking beer from 2pm onwards every saturday / go to the pub by themselves, now I come to think of it. Or at least none that admit to it!

JugglingFromHereToThere · 24/01/2015 14:40

Thanks for the thread cailindana - I agree that being a mother (in terms of role, what is expected/demanded) feels less optional than being a father.
The buck always seems to stop here (in this family)

PetulaGordino · 24/01/2015 14:43

Going back to your point Cailin about older people - there was a report in the news some months ago about isolation among retired widowers. Many had relied on their wives to maintain their social lives and connections with family, so this just fell away once their wives died.

almondcakes · 24/01/2015 14:44

I'm aware of that CD, but there are some posts on this thread that seem to suggest that feminism is mostly about opposing ippositional sexism (girls doing science is good! Boys with long hair is good!) rather than being about opposing traditional sexism - denying rights, safety, status and economic security to women largely by making everything feminine like raising kids devalued and suspect.

creambun2014 · 24/01/2015 14:44

Omni - Are your friends a lot older? Dh and I are go out in a group and take it in turn. All my female friends go out all day/night and most have children. We usually stay at the travelodge as we dont leave the club until 4/5am. This is fairly standard for parents in their 20s/early 30s where I am.

funnyossity · 24/01/2015 14:45

Well just for balance Omnipotent, I thought reading the OP that it didn't tally with my experience of Dads growing up but maybe because I lived on a WC estate!

There were many Dads who gave a lot of time to their kids (not tiny babies though, that has changed ime) and no "businessmen" types! I came across that sort of neglectful dad later on when meeting the middle class. Wink

cailindana · 24/01/2015 14:47

Yops I entirely agree with you. I absolutely do not think men's lives are a breeze. My point is that in the current set up both women and men miss out.

The working world is set up under a patriarchal model - the ideal of a dedicated worker, able to put in long hours, shifts, travel etc. while family commitments are taken care of by a partner. Usually the dedicated worker is a man, while the family carer is a woman.

Under this model both women and men lose out.

Women lose out more in the early years, men more in later years, but essentially it's good for no one.

What feminism would like to see is a move towards a situation where family life is seen as essential for both men and women, so that men can't opt out and must balance work and childcare in the same way that women are forced to, such that the working world becomes more balanced and more accommodating for all workers.

My point re:opting out is that there is an assumption that men can have children and rarely ever put time into rearing them, while women can't. Thus we have the situation where women feel compelled to give up work, whether they want to or not, while men become disconnected from their families, throw themselves into work, work long hours and are lost at retirement.

Essentially we are agreeing I think - do you?

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creambun2014 · 24/01/2015 14:48

We are working class as well so lots of sahds/ women having the same social life as men etc. You dont see what is described on here a lot in my area even the parents that are no longer together usually have the dad doing every weekend. There are deadbeat dads but they are in the minority in my rl.

PetulaGordino · 24/01/2015 14:48

My father used to leave for work at 6.30am not because he had to be there at that time, but because it meant he didn't have to be involved in getting 4 children out the door for school. Mum drove us to school (she worked nearby). He is otherwise an involved, interested and loving father, but he felt he could opt out of this and he did