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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The optional nature of men's lives

411 replies

cailindana · 24/01/2015 12:35

I was talking about this with DH recently and he agreed with much of what I said.

It strikes me that boys and men have very "optional" lives in comparison to girls and women and that this influences their whole approach to life. What I mean is, girls learn pretty early on that their choices will be restricted, that their options will be limited. From only being allowed to wear skirts and then told they mustn't show their knickers (thus removing the option to be active) to suddenly having to deal with periods and curtailing activities due to that, to then contending with the prospect of unwanted pregnancy and thus having restrictions on sexuality to then being told not to walk certain places not to do certain things for fear of being attacked and ultimately being told you "can't have it all" - ie choose work or children.

IMO, women (in general of course, not all) learn very quickly that there are consequences to things, that you can't always have what you want, that sometimes you just have to get on with it and face the fact that everything isn't perfect. I think that influences their approach to so many things in life from housework, to illness, to childrearing. Men on the other hand, always seem to have options open to them and I think that leads to a certain immaturity, a lack of acceptance that sometimes you can't have what you want. I think it has a bearing on how men approach things like fatherhood and the idea that now you don't have any choice but to knuckle down and accept your life is different - so many men seem to want to "opt out" and carry on as if nothing is different, thus leaving women to, as usual, take the hard road.

While I don't think it's right that women often end up carrying the burden I'm not sure it's necessarily a bad thing to have that maturity foisted on you. I think while women do lose out massively in the earlier years, especially when children are young, that maturity and that acceptance stands them in very good stead as they get older and ultimately they reap the rewards. I notice among older friends that women seem to come into their own in their 50s whereas men can't face that their options are now becoming limited and they no longer have the world open to them - hence mid-life crises etc. I think also because men expect options they tend to skirt on the edges of responsibility, never full accepting the hardship of, for example, parenthood, and thus ending up on the fringes as children get older and become true friends and companions. Thus women, who have been the stable guiding force in childhood, mucking in, organising, being the go-to person, reap the rewards of a close relationship with their adult children, whereas men, who focused on work, never really got their hands dirty with parenting, are now coming to retirement and the loss of that source of status but have not really jumped in with both feet in family life and so don't have that either. They are left with very little.

I am not saying the equality that exists is a good thing. What I'm saying I suppose is that while women look on enviously at men continuing their careers and never attending a parents' evening, they might do well to remember that the emotional toil and labour they put into their families is really and truly worth something. Jobs come and go, they give no love or longterm support. But children are for life, and being that person who always knows where the PE kit is is important, is special.

Men are missing out. They just don't realise that until it's too late.

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cailindana · 24/01/2015 13:04

That's great Marsha. And I do think that is becoming more common and both women and men will reap the rewards.

As an example of what I mean, when DD was small and a nightmare to look after, DH took over DS's bedtime routine. I found out after 5 months of this going on that he hadn't once brushed DS's teeth in that time. To me that signalled a lack of mental engagement, a lack of recognition that as DS's other parent it was his absolute duty to do things like that. When quizzed on it he couldn't account for his actions though it did emerge that he basically saw those niggly details as my job. He realises now what a knob he was and has changed entirely.

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cailindana · 24/01/2015 13:06

He has cream, he's a different man.

He picked up his ideas of fatherhood from his own father who is a "traditional man" ie a total knob, who didn't engage with fatherhood in any practical way at all. He sees that now and has stepped up completely.

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OmnipotentQueenOfTheUniverse · 24/01/2015 13:07

Not sure about the parenting thing but what you wrote reminded me of work (paid). So IME men seem to have higher expectations in terms of promotion and money and higher ideas about their own worth while women seem to be more "get what you're given and be grateful" and I think this contributes to the pay gap and not as the fault of women but socialisation which starts young and you touch on in your post. ie about the hard work and you can't always have it your way stuff.

MarshaBrady · 24/01/2015 13:10

In fact the pool is often commandeered by fathers doing the super dad loud parenting thing Wink. That is of course, when I go, dh usually does swimming. Or at the school information sessions asking questions, definitely at the school plays. It does feel like a new wave.

It's great that your dh has stepped up.

peggyundercrackers · 24/01/2015 13:10

sorry I don't recognise what you say - most men I know have a very involved relationship with their children.

Just yesterday I got a bit of a surprise, it was pouring rain so took DD to an indoor play area - out of the 15 or so adults that were there only 3 were woman, the rest were men. none of the woman were taking part in any activities that were taking place but at least half the men were.

cailindana · 24/01/2015 13:13

Again that is great, peggy. DH takes the kids out on Saturdays and often comments on how few men are there, or says that the only men are the ones there with women.

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creambun2014 · 24/01/2015 13:13

I dont agree with saying this is what men do when it is down right neglectful parenting. There are men still like this around but they are no longer in the majority as they are seen as old dinosaurs to normal men thankfully.

cailindana · 24/01/2015 13:18

Not among my friendship group unfortunately cream. My best friend's DH is a nice guy but never gets involved in any details. The DH of another good friend refused to take time off to look after the kids when she was suffering mobility issues. The ex-partner of a further friend bunks out of contact whenever he possibly can. The partner of an acquaintance has never once looked after their DD on his own. These are all pretty ordinary men (although the ex is exceptionally dickish). My own father and FIL never engaged in fatherhood, although I accept they are part of a different generation. My DH's boss doesn't even live with his family - they are in a different town and he is here Monday- Friday. I have many more examples. On MN it's very common to see women working SAHMs doing absolutely everything for their children while their partners just work, or even mums who work fulltime having to do all the detailed work of parenting.

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cailindana · 24/01/2015 13:20

An interesting article in The Guardianabout balance of childcare in families - the research says women do more.

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creambun2014 · 24/01/2015 13:20

He isnt a nice guy then cailin. A real nice guy wouldnt do that

theendoftheendoftheend · 24/01/2015 13:20

Ummm... I know alot of fathers like that actually cream, just because you don't doesn't mean they've all disappeared Hmm obviously you move in better circles then me. Well done.

cailindana · 24/01/2015 13:21

Grandparents are twice as likely to look after children as fathers.
In 2012 there were 6,000 SAHDs and 44,000 SAHMs. That is a huge difference.

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cailindana · 24/01/2015 13:22

Who isn't a nice guy?

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MarshaBrady · 24/01/2015 13:22

I agree that there's a huge discrepancy between sahms and sahds

theendoftheendoftheend · 24/01/2015 13:22

And you really aren't qualified to tell the OP who amongst her aquaintances are, or are not, nice guys. Would you like to step down off your pedestal now?

creambun2014 · 24/01/2015 13:23

Your best friends dh

cailindana · 24/01/2015 13:25

He's pretty ordinary among the men I know - works hard, kind, loving etc. but ask him where the kids' shoes are and he doesn't know.

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FloraFox · 24/01/2015 13:26

I know what you mean cailin I know loads of men like this. They are not bad people and it's not that they didn't want kids. They are normal men who work long hours and have a wife at home taking care of the entirety of their non-work existence (except for climbing Mount Kilimonjaro or running a marathon, which a surprising number manage to fit into their lives despite said long working hours). Some of them are conspicuously present at Saturday swimming or football but that's about the height of it. Men in that situation definitely don't feel they have to make choice between career and fatherhood.

These men are mostly middle class but I also know working class men who are similar. IME though more working class men pitch in nowadays as their wives are working too, unless they are arses.

cailindana · 24/01/2015 13:26

My DH genuinely believed he was being a good father because he was following the role models he saw around him. He knows now he wasn't, but it's what he learned and grew up with and it took a wake up call to realise it wasn't right.

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MarshaBrady · 24/01/2015 13:27

All the ones I'm talking about are middle class. I often wonder how they turn up to so much stuff tbh

peggyundercrackers · 24/01/2015 13:27

cailindana grandparents are more likely to look after kids that parents because parents work - most grandparents will have retired. most familiesi nowadays need 2 parents working to pay for their lifestyle choices.

cailindana · 24/01/2015 13:29

Peggy - in terms of who looks after children it goes - women - grandparents - childcare - men. So men are absolutely at the bottom of the pile in terms of who takes on the bulk of childcare.

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MarshaBrady · 24/01/2015 13:32

Perhaps location has something to do with it. Different patterns outside cities, where one parent is more likely to commute the long distance to work.

TheFriar · 24/01/2015 13:34

I can see loads of fathers like this at my dcs school. I love the ones who organise an put school activity for their dc because they think it's good (think a sport that they like) and then expect their DW to take the child gut all the a etc. BUT will be present if there us a match as this, of course, is that fun part.

I personally think men need a big wake up call (my DH had a similar one than the op's DH). And that women also need a wake up call (is you don't have to accept said behaviour from men and you can keep some opportunities open to you rather than act as if nothing was ever possible, eg a fulfilling job)

IrenetheQuaint · 24/01/2015 13:35

My father was rather like this - pretty normal for the 1980s, as others have said - and we weren't terribly close when I was growing up. But when I became an adult I started realising that we had a lot in common and we now get on very well. Whereas my mother, who loved having needy adoring small children, found it hard when we grew up and didn't really need her any more.

I agree with cailin's general point but don't think there is an automatic correlation between parental engagement with small children and relationship with those children as adults, unfair as it may seem.

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