Feminist Pub 16: where the Bluestockings develop armoured stockings to deal with the thousand paper cuts

[FibonacciSeries]

Carry on.

I did do one useful thing... Eilis, dunno about the rest of it, but 'how close to misogyny you can get when complaining' is v. interesting. But complaining about the social emphasis on looks and gender which was effectively the conversation then, is not misogyny - except in a society where genders are highly separated and women are only rated on looks. Which is msogynistic itself. That's my take. Off I go again and I'm not going to look again, oh no.

how funny that despite us seeing more variety of people, it doesn't stop the "ideal" being quite rigid

Yes, and we are much more aware of how closely or not we match that increasingly narrow ideal.

I wonder if non-English speakers struggle with the speculum thing; Spiegel sounds a lot more like it, though I doubt there's an etymological link unless the Romans introduced mirrors to Germanic tribes. (I could easily check.)

I know it's not an easy name, I don't usually mind people getting it wrong, it's only in a context of... basically the carelessness with which is is being reproduced in this context twinges the irritation at generally feeling unheard, feeling that I am not being "read" properly in general. On other threads everyone calls me Ellis and it doesn't bother me. It's just here

"Bitching" was Annie's word, initially.

I'm upset too. I think we can all do better than this, me included, and I am willing to try, but not with lazy, reheated crap like that being served up. There is a lot that I could have said but did not and I really don't appreciated being mischaracterised like that. Seriously I don't see how that comment is remotely defensible.

I checked. Spiegel does go back to speculum via speglum (mediaeval Latin) and spieghel (middle Dutch).

But we also have speculate, speculation in English. Though my brain does seem more wired for pattern matching than other people. (Might be the IT influence, but not sure which is chicken or egg.)

annie did come back and say that it was unnecessary and should be ignored. we don't always say the right thing when we are hurt. i think she probably feels mischaracterised too, though i don't want to speak for her

i do think there is an important and interesting discussion to be had about those fine lines you talk about. as a result of your posts on this i have certainly been thinking carefully about my own behaviour and responses.

"And you know what also annoys me - I'm actually nervous about posting this in case elis comes back and starts on at me bitching behind people's backs again."

Don't be nervous about me. If you are wondering if there is something wrong with what you are posting it, ask yourself if you stand by it and then post or not. Don't blame me and don't be "annoyed" that there is a possibility that you might not post everything perfectly, and someone might point it out.

I honestly think that there are lot better uses for the brilliant minds on this corner of the internet than pointing out banal crap but I wouldn't have picked up on anything about that post Annie, because it wasn't actually horrible. That wasn't what our quarrel(which you made into a quarrel, not me) was about and if you don't get that then there is nothing I can do.

I nearly mistype socks as cocks on the other thread, leading to the disturbing idea of ironing cocks, which is even more disturbing than the idea of ironing children's socks, which is pretty disturbing in itself.

Now I must eat my lunch and soldier on with proofreading 3 more articles.

I know it was annie's word. It makes me uncomfortable, in both contexts.

I'm sorry you feel this is all 'lazy,' especially the spelling of your name. I was finding it a really interesting, useful discussion, and I was getting all excited about doing some work on the things we were talking about. There's no reason you'd know, but at the moment, I have absolutely no confidence in my ability to say anything worthwhile, because I've recently been taken down for, among other things, my 'lazy' spelling and the 'lazy' thought processes it must indicate.

I know you didn't intend to stir all of that up, and I know you've got a valid point that it is difficult for women to criticize each other, but you're coming across as extremely critical and, honestly, it is hurtful. I get why annie's hurt. I don't really see why you are.

Petula, if Annie regretted saying it, she could have reported it and had it deleted; or she could have apologised properly. (or both) Instead she is trying to have her cake and eat it by leaving it there but instructing us to "ignore" it.

It's a passive aggressive way of portraying the situation as "me nice, Eilis nasty" while still putting the boot in and making sure that everyone will feel sorry for her for the fact that I once dared criticise or disagree. Its about circling the wagons and has nothing to do with constructive discourse.

LRD there is a ton of stuff on this thread that is the opposite of lazy.

• What I consider to be lazy is Annie's characterisation of the discomfort of second guessing what she is about to write as being a product of a dispute with an individual, and acting on that discomfort by a dig at that individual weeks later, rather than interrogating what she is uncomfortable about (she knows it is there, she isn't ready to face it yet, and will do so in private in the her own time; in the meantime, no need to attack me, thank you)

• What I am hurt about is that this seems to be being accepted by this group as ok?

"you're coming across as extremely critical" - where? Here on this thread where I object to Annie's dig? Or in general?

I think that's unfair.

I think it is just as 'lazy' (if you can call it that, and I think it's unnecessarily antagonistic) to assume you can read her mind, as it is for her to think she can anticipate your responses.

I don't think either of those things are ok.

Look: there are always going to be things we all disagree about. Sometimes strongly. There are feminists on here who are in favour of prostitution and others who are radically against it. There are feminists who disagree about how we deal with huge things like rape law. There's me and Buffy tearing strips off each other's pet theories. But, can't we just say it is ok sometimes to think someone else is a bad feminist, and let it go?

What strips are you and Buffy tearing off each other LRD? Missed that one!

LRD - And about the spelling. I really don't give a shit and I am sorry if this is a sore point for you.

But! - it is typical of you, a thoughtful poster, that you picked up a note I made to someone else and thought "Oh shit do I do that too?" It wasn't meant for you but you are sensitive enough to wonder. I am sorry about the shit going on in your life and I am very very sure you are brilliant at what you do.

BUT BUT BUT other kinds of posters spend all their time making sure that "THIS! CRITICISM! WILL! NOT! STICK! TO! ME!" - because they will fight it, reject it, point out in various passive aggressive ways that they have millions of friends, etc. you are not that kind of poster.

"But, can't we just say it is ok sometimes to think someone else is a bad feminist, and let it go?"

Who exactly is that aimed at?

Who isn't letting it go?

Well, yes, it is a sore point.

But - and I am saying this to illustrate the problem of what I think is going on, not to be picky - but calling it 'a sore point for you,' you imply it's my problem, not yours.

And criticizing the way someone else writes or thinks in a pejorative way (even if it's valid) is quite difficult to take. That's what I would see as critical, and hostile.

I do understand this is a big issue - it's just I honestly, for the life of me, cannot see where and how annie has said anything to merit this. If she has, must it be hammered out here? I know it was her who posted, and I agree with her that wasn't the right thing to do. But couldn't we drop it now?

penguins - oh, we disagree over post structuralism. It's not important, just, FGS we're all going to disagree over something and it can be done without it becoming personal. I think.

I would never say someone is a bad feminist. I would say "hang on I don't like that way of talking much" but apparently even that is being regarded by this group as too much. So what do you mean by telling me that disagreement is ok? I know! I'm not the one who has a problem with it!

Oh. I shall nod sagely whilst not understanding post structuralism at all.

Ok, look, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to sit here to be cross-questioned.

See you all later.

"And criticizing the way someone else writes or thinks in a pejorative way (even if it's valid) is quite difficult to take. That's what I would see as critical, and hostile. "

ok - I get that I did do that, in December, and Annie was hurt. I don't think the response to what I said was fair, actually, but I accept it in the sense of I see why it happened.

What I don't get is that Annie can then make a dig about it in JANUARY and I'm the bad guy?

Or in other words, in January Annie is "And criticizing the way someone else writes or thinks in a pejorative way (even if it's valid) is quite difficult to take." - to ME

And it's STILL my fault?

Can I ask what post structuralism is? Or be pointed to literature?