Is male violence against women ever acceptable?

[LoafersOrLouboutins]

I'm not sure how to articulate this and my 'evidence' is purely anecdotal. Just dipping my toes in the feminism board.

I used to be a keen polo player 16 years ago and regularly played with my boyfriend. On the morning of one match we had a fairly serious argument. He seriously injured me (broken nose, fractured cheekbone and two chipped teeth) during the game. I accepted this as polo is a VERY dangerous sport and people seemed to accept it without asking any questions as to why he was SO determined during that particular game. Most people aren't so competitive they would risk this.

With hindsight, I wonder whether violence against women in sport is a way men conduct their violent fantasies?

People would be horrified if I said my boyfriend did this to me during an argument but in the course of sport it was accepted.

This was many years ago and I probably don't make any sense but it has started to play on my mind that he may have used sport as a cover for his desire to hurt me.

Zazzles, I don't look at FWR as anything. It's not MY anything, other than a space to read and discuss feminism and women's rights issues.
Posting styles can vary from thread to thread. This thread is titled with a question which tends to create its own style of responses. Seeing as you are fixated on styles, what are your views?
I think, styles apart, attacking people is not part of MN's MO. I don't know why you think you are above that? Please explain to me why you feel this way? (Something other than because you post here regularly).
I'm am mildly dyslexic but I can understand enough. I can read between the lines and understand what your last paragraph is all about.
I suppose that the subtleties here that may have been missed or not are that wanting someone not to attack another poster does not mean I don't want to listen to their opinion. People can communicate with out any need for attacking.

Finally, thanks for following my posting history (it does induce comas). I had a look at some of your posting history and if this comes across as mean then please say and I'll apologise. It is supposed to maybe help. You don't need to try so hard to impress on here. You don't need to try and become a 'character'. Posters are more interested in your mind. For example, you wrote a post about three things you had done. Something about shouting at someone, something about glaring at someone. It comes across as a bit try hard and please like me. This is probably why it was met with silence.

I am not interested in your views quite frankly, why do you think I would be? I have seen your goady posts on here - why do your posts have to be goady? Does your dyslexia prevent you from seeing how you are perceived by others? No, actually that usually stems from something else, come to think of it. Personality disorder perhaps?

And no I don't 'follow' your posting history. Why would you think I do? Are you self-centred enough to think that the world revolves around you in some way? That you have 'followers' on MN? And btw, I'm not self-centred enough to think that every post of mine requires a response from someone - why would I? Have you noticed that there is an ebb and flow to boards? That not every single post gets answered by someone else 100% of the time? Why would you need to pick out just the one post of mine in another thread that got no response to single out?

I think it is better that you think about the questions I have posed to you, rather than trying to turn that game on me. I have already done a shitload of psychoanalysis on myself, and there is nothing you can teach me in that regard.

Zaz,
Goady, ironic? Unless you don't think attacking someone is goady.

I can see how I am perceived but if you could expand on that, then that maybe beneficial. You talk about self perception. If you find it hard to do it to access yourself then maybe use the MN guidelines as a checklist. Then it wouldn't hurt you to apologise to others on this thread.
Could you elaborate on why you are suggesting I might have a personality disorder? It might be beneficial.
I'm not self-centred, sorry if you didn't like the word 'follow, it was twitter cross over. I accept that was badly written. I have been answering some of your questions. Why are you ignoring mine? You tell me to focus on your questions. Again, I apologise if I have come across as self centred.
I chose that post of yours as an example to try and give some context to my post.
I find external analysis can help shed a different view point.

*assess

No, it is not up to me to enlighten you with answers. I am already do far more than my share by providing you with the questions. You will learn far more by seeking the answers yourself - these are hard won, and have a far better impact when you learn them for yourself.

I don't answer your questions because I don't have to. Same as for the apologies. The posters on this thread who've had a go at me - well I don't give a fig about them, so why should I apologise to people I don't know personally and don't care about? I don't owe you anything, yet you seem to think that I do - can you see how this might come across as self centered? And by the way, there is nothing you can provide me in the realm of self awareness that I have not covered myself. Have you suffered a potentially life threatening illness? Have you done all the internal work that goes with that sort of grief and come out the other side stronger than ever? Have you watched others struggle with the same things that you know could have killed you and brought you down? Unless you have been through this sort of personal tragedy, I stand by my position that there is nothing you can teach me in this regard.

I don't get why you chose one particular post of mine which didn't get an answer to single out, and I think I accept that I possibly never will. There are possibly quite a number of my posts that don't get a response, and its part of posting on threads anywhere that you get accustomed to. I am actually past caring at this point tbh.

Finally, having studied psychology both at uni and on a personal level for many years, one of the first indications of a personality disorder is a higher than normal level of self centredness.

I know it's not up to you to answer. I was answering your questions out of politeness. It's sometimes give and take on here. In my opinion it is less self centred to reply to others. I think it's self centred to dismiss others questions and tell them to focus on your questions, then act like you are doing them a favour by doing this. Anyway, I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on what Self centred actually looks like.

I don't think you owe me anything, zazzles. I just don't like posters being overly personal and attacking others. I understand why you did attack now because you don't care.

I have come through a life threatening illness as a young adult, at a time when I did lose a very close family member, but that isn't relevant to this thread. I would say this though, if you think you know everything about self awareness then you have more to learn about self awareness. Even time will teach you that.

Anyway, sorry to hear about your illness. I would suggest not suggesting things like personality disorder on MN, it's insensitive to people that have it and want to seriously discuss it on MN and the person you are saying it to. I'm not sure when you graduated but there is a real push and momentum around MH now. Although not a break through yet.

You are entirely welcome to your own views. Given your posts upthread, I doubt there would be a common ground between us, although that is usually what I seek from others. And just because you have not encountered that yourself, I know you will judge me that way. Again, I care not.

And no, you call it an attack, I call it something else. Unless you have been here regularly and seen the sorts of misogynistic posters that turn up here trying to goad the FWR posters week-in and week-out, then you can't possibly understand what it is like to have that sort of misogynistic bullshit posted here. If you had read twofalls' later posts, she admits that herself. That is the problem I have with posts that appear goady, and if people are not careful about the tone in which their post is written, their posts will be indistinguishable from a misogynist or MRA.

Again, having had a family full of personality and mental disorders, I have more experience with people with mental health issues, than the average person. Don't presume to tell me how to be about this issue. I come from a healthcare background where all sorts of health issues are discussed freely. I have posted this in many places both here and in other areas. But not being a regular poster here, you wouldn't know that.

Could we get back to the topic?

Further to my question upthread, I wonder how much male on male violence is (ostensibly) triggered by possessiveness over a woman (are you looking at my bird etc

This has happened to me in the past; I dumped the guy for it then stupidly took him back. In due course, he hit me directly.

But fighting over a woman is one of the "romantic" stereotypes!

I agree there are those posters. You don't have to post regularly, you can read it. However, twofalls does a lot for women's rights. Maybe more than yourself. She asked a question. She wasn't rude, you laid in to her. She is a feminist and you jumped on her. Stuff like tell her not to post here, stuff like it doesn't end up well for people like her (could be a threat, predicting suicide). That's what I didn't like. Then you spun it on yourself like she was attacking you! Saying stuff like I won't be silenced. Twofalls simple wasn't doing that. Then you started going on about I'm a regular, stuff along the lines of my house, my rules, mine is the voice that will be heard.
The fact that twofalls is an active feminist then maybe you need to assess how you identify people to attack.

Zazzles, I was responding to your post above where you are flippant about personality disorders. I think it's a negative thing to bandy about. I shall agree to disagree with you about that.

You seem fixated about 'regular posters' not so much 'regular readers'. Can you see that there will be first time poster and new members to the section. You can act like the gate keeper but twofalls seemed like she had a lot of experience to bring to this sections readers. Not just glaring at someone but actual actively involved. It's a shame.
I can't put it any clearer than that. It annoyed me.

That's an interesting question, Yonic. I think you're right that jealousy is set up as this amazingly romantic thing by popular culture when in fact it's deeply dysfunctional. The jealousy trope itself is not a gendered thing (think about the number of teen romcoms which centre round "Little Ms Ordinary" - with whom the teen girls in the audience are meant to identify - and the "Cheerleader/Prom Queen" vying for the attentions of the football captain).

But the mode of expression of this jealousy is deeply gendered - as you say, it's almost as if popular culture encourages men to become violent over it. And it's so muddled with other factors - the idea that the man encroaching on the territory might well genuinely be predatory (if the situation has to be dealt with violently, how I would love to see a rom com where the heroine looks after herself by kneeing the predator in the balls, rather than having to be rescued by the hero punching the predator), the idea that women need rescuing because they're not physically strong enough (so couldn't knee the man in the balls themselves), the idea that being rescued is romantic and doing the rescuing is chilvalric (cf. "white-knighting" in popular culture).

I came across it in a (rather bad) novella only the other day - our hero wades in and punches the perpetrator before the heroine has even had a chance to say to the guy "actually, I don't feel that way..." But this was being set up as a romantic outcome, and the turning point where the heroine realises the hero feels "that way" about her rather than merely feeling friendship. (Because, of course, turning it round, who would help a woman who was merely their friend rather than a woman one hoped to get sex from? Sarcasm alert, lest anyone think I believe all men in the real world think this way - I don't - but on planet RomCom...)

Yes, I think so. And a woman being "ruined" by sex out of wedlock etc.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist
"Snow no need to apologise. I think what we're trying to get you to realise that in a feminist space normal rules don't really apply. If you have questions and want to learn about feminism, a thread about male violence probably isn't the best venue"

That's why I was saying sorry, I think some of the points were/ good, can be interesting to discuss later, but it's apologising for the way I went about it - both in the context and adapting to a different outlook on things.

YonicScrewdriver
"I wonder how much male on male violence is (ostensibly) triggered by possessiveness over a woman (are you looking at my bird etc

But fighting over a woman is one of the "romantic" stereotypes!"

You can also have the reverse, with guys hitting other guys who are restraining a woman too (i.e. the woman is always defenseless and so the guy must be after her). Not meaning this is a major issue, just it's the same thought process behind it.

I would guess there is biology/evolution behind it too though - wanting to protect your territory/ "herd". Not that it makes it ok to act on that, but I guess it's not just the cultural impact?

One of the other strange stereotypes is guys chasing women who don't love them/ dislike them, and eventually winning their heart. In reality that tends to look like harassment!

"In reality that tends to look like harassment!"

Yes!

Just for you king. Now I know why you are so insistent that you voice be heard above women.

You can't say for sure what twofalls does. Do you know her in real life do? I don't understand why you are sticking up for someone who don't know, either in a forum-like way, or in real life. Do you view yourself as 'chivalrous' or something? I have had an experience of a 'chivalrous' man this week. The truth was that he was sticking his beak in where it was not warranted. Are you one of those interfering men? Btw, it was really disingenuous of you to not disclose that you are a man, and let the posters here in a feminists board, think you are a woman. This puts an entirely different spin to your post.

And where did I mention anything about suicide? You are now projecting something onto me that I didn't say at all. Please find me the information that says that people with personality disorders have high rates of suicide. Because that is what I was talking about. On the whole, people with personality disorders end up sending those they encounter to the psychologists couch, not the other way around. You seem to be such on authority on mental health, perhaps you could tell us which university you graduated for in psychology or psychiatry and what your current profession is. But I suspect that this is just another stick with which you'd like to beat me with, isn't it?

You seem to be rather hard of understanding it has been said several times on this thread, and I will bold it for you this time, so that perhaps you will get it - This part of MN is not like others. We get goady misogynists and MRAs here week-in and week-out. If you are not careful about your posting style here, it will be viewed as indistinguishable from a misogynist or an MRA. It is not up to me to 'assess how I identify which people to attack' - how it that possible when they are indistinguishable from a misogynist or MRA? A very good universal wisdom is "You are responsible for you communication. It is not up to others to have to decipher what you are saying". Twofalls admited that herself, yet you are still flogging a dead horse. Why is that? Do you do this with all the women in your life? Do you find things to pick on them about? Are you negative about women as a generality? You picked on a post of mine in FWR, so I think its only fair that I mention your posting in the dating thread. Do you find dating women problematic? You seem to have trouble with a women picking you up and dropping you like a toy - do you not realise that she is just doing to you, what many, many men do to women anyway?

You don't seem to get what I am saying about this board. Why is that? Do you always immediately dismiss what a woman is saying? You do remind of the obnoxious young man I encountered this week, who was openly running down a woman while I was waiting in a queue for a taxi. I wonder why that is? You seem to have the typical male entitlement, that you are entitled to be in any space just because you are a man, and yet you didn't disclose that you are male in this space, a feminists space. And don't try to gaslight me with "it shouldn't matter", it does. Now that I know you are male, you appear to have all the hallmarks of male entitlement that the women of FWR have discussed in many, many threads. I am not going to enlighten you on that either. It is up to you to find out for yourself.

And by the way, if you read fine, the interaction is one way. But if you come in and post, then you have to be able to take the heat if your post is taken the wrong way. You are just trying to misdirect the argument, which is another tactic men use. Do try to stick to stay on track, hmm???

Its highly, highly ironic on a thread about male violence against women, that a male poster is trying to dominate a woman, don't you think? I guess its just the society we women have to live in, isn't it?