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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Is male violence against women ever acceptable?

220 replies

LoafersOrLouboutins · 11/11/2014 18:30

I'm not sure how to articulate this and my 'evidence' is purely anecdotal. Just dipping my toes in the feminism board.

I used to be a keen polo player 16 years ago and regularly played with my boyfriend. On the morning of one match we had a fairly serious argument. He seriously injured me (broken nose, fractured cheekbone and two chipped teeth) during the game. I accepted this as polo is a VERY dangerous sport and people seemed to accept it without asking any questions as to why he was SO determined during that particular game. Most people aren't so competitive they would risk this.

With hindsight, I wonder whether violence against women in sport is a way men conduct their violent fantasies?

People would be horrified if I said my boyfriend did this to me during an argument but in the course of sport it was accepted.

This was many years ago and I probably don't make any sense but it has started to play on my mind that he may have used sport as a cover for his desire to hurt me.

OP posts:
BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 20/11/2014 13:24

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King1982 · 20/11/2014 14:02

I agree Buffy. I think zazzles was being unnecessarily rude and getting personal. Instead of just sticking to the discussion. Some people relish doing this to people and seem to get off on it.

zippey · 20/11/2014 15:26

I agree with Buffy's last post, though I think people are being too lenient on Zazzles, maybe its because she is a regular poster on the FWR board. I don't know her previous posting history but she has been been incredibly rude to people on this thread especially twofalls. Twofalls has apologized now a few times but the apology is coming from the wrong person. There was a thread recently about why people were too afraid to post on the FWR thread, and I would argue it is because of responses such as those exhibited here.

On a different point, I agree there is a strong undercurrent male view that losing to a female shows you are less of a "man". You often hear the terms "he plays/runs like a girl" etc as an insult. It is very depressing, especially when we are trying to teach girls about self worth and they are confronted by those insults, often directed at boys on a regular basis. We need to start locally by having an ethos and teaching our boys and girls.

YonicScrewdriver · 20/11/2014 15:31

You often hear the terms "he plays/runs like a girl" etc as an insult. It is very depressing,

Agree. I think one of the football teams (Liverpool?) have banned this kind of insult.

England-Germany game on Sunday, 3pm, BBC2, if people wanna see what "playing like a woman" looks like Grin

LurcioAgain · 20/11/2014 15:36

Thanks for the heads up, Yonic. Should be well worth watching - Germany (the women's team) play fabulous football - an open passing game with really inventive midfielders. (I think on the men's showing in the most recent men's World Cup that they may have learned a thing or two from their women's team Wink - seems the inspiration has helped them to shed the boring but worthy image they've been dogged by for decades).

YonicScrewdriver · 20/11/2014 15:45

Quite, Lurcio. Quite.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 20/11/2014 15:48

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zippey · 20/11/2014 15:53

Glad to hear a major football team (albeit Liverpool) is doing the right thing. Its a bit like hearing that Hearts FC in Scotland is the first to introduce a living wage to all employees. On a more optimistic note, I think things are going in the right direction.

Wasn't it a Liverpool game where Andy Grey and Richard Keyes had insulted a Liverpool lineswoman? Maybe this provided the impetus to start changing their attitudes. However, they also showed OTT support of Suarez even though he was found guilty of racism. One step forward two steps back.

YonicScrewdriver · 20/11/2014 16:08

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/07/30/liverpool-discriminatory-sheet_n_3675430.html

Looks like this step forward was two years after the Suarez step back.

Anyhow, this is a massive derail. Sorry, Referee Buffy!

YonicScrewdriver · 20/11/2014 16:10

Has anyone had experience of boyfriends threatening male friends 'in lieu' of what they probably want to do i.e. threatening their girlfriend directly?

thatwouldbeanecumenicalmatter · 20/11/2014 16:30

Sorry taking the DC out but wanted to post while I remember.

Also just skimmed the thread hope this link the sort of thing that the OP is implying? (Sian Massey ref deliberately knocked over by a Cardiff City player areshole)

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 20/11/2014 16:35

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Snow1 · 20/11/2014 16:52

Buffy

I don't want to get the arguments started up again, just I would question you blaming it on misogynistic people. I have just joined, so have not seen if there is a big problem with this. However just because someone disagrees/ points out stuff for guys it doesn't mean they're misogynistic. I think the reason it was pointed out earlier was because all the other violence types were mentioned apart from female on male in a list. Other posters had mentioned any violence was unacceptable, just it seemed a bit strange with it missing out. However I don't think the poster meant it was ok, but was just wanting to highlight what they view as the much bigger issue.

SevenZarkSeven

"I haven't seen many women hit men in clubs but have witnesses quite a lot of brawls which have been all male.

That aside, and of course women do hit men from time to time, the thing that strikes me, is what about sexual assault in nightclubs? If we're talking "minor" unreported violence, then sure a man is more likely to be hit, or shoved, by another man or a woman. However women are much much more likely to be groped, have men grab their breasts or arses, stick their hands up their skirts, lick their faces, and all the other random shit that men do to you when you're young and out and about. None of this is reported either and while it's not "violent" in the same sense as a punch in the face or a shove it is certainly an assault and extremley common and unreported. Not to mention the fact that when women react unfavourably things can and do escalate into other undesirable behaviour like following, badgering, shouting, pushing, pulling, shoving, and, yes, hitting.

So I'm not seeing this men are at risk on a night out more than women thing. It looks different but it's all unpleasant and it's all assault. Talking about one and ignoring the other just minimises what women put up with and ignores women's stories and experience."

Yeap, the sexual assault is another side I hadn't thought about in regards to the topic of violence. But it is a massive issue, and I would agree it's unreported. In regards to the last point - I guess that's exactly why I was saying what I was saying - more trying to balance things out too - not minimizing either side. I'm not trying to push a misogynistic view, more (IMO) just balancing things and trying to learn from a different viewpoint/ experience.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 20/11/2014 16:59

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HaroldsBishop · 20/11/2014 17:02

The bloke mentioned in the OP is a dick and I wouldn't be surprised if it was at least partly intended. I've been at the receiving end of this kind of behaviour (using sport as an excuse for violence) in 5-a-side football.

The Sian Massey clip above - that was clearly accidental he's going after the ball he's just kept in. That's not to say she hasn't been on the end of any sexism (I'm sure we all remember the Richard Keys incident) - but if you so much as touch an assistant ref in anger the FA come down on you like a tonne of bricks.

He took some flack for not apologising or even checking to see if she was ok (which he had plenty of time for as Ms. Massey immediately got up and awarded a goal kick).

Snow1 · 20/11/2014 17:43

Buffy

I can well imagine. People (generally young guys) troll everywhere. It was more in reference to this case - I don't think there was really anything misogynistic said. More just sidetracking/ picking on one small detail. But from other forums it does tend to be difficult to not react when you keep getting other crap from new/ the same old people.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 20/11/2014 17:59

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thatwouldbeanecumenicalmatter · 20/11/2014 19:19

The Sian Massey clip above - that was clearly accidental he's going after the ball he's just kept in.

Nope, I disagree, you can clearly see he swerves to his left to run into her! If he was still running with the momentum he was going at he'd have ran clear past her!

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 20/11/2014 19:28

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LurcioAgain · 20/11/2014 19:31

Snow, just to underline what Buffy said... You wrote "Yeap, the sexual assault is another side I hadn't thought about in regards to the topic of violence. But it is a massive issue, and I would agree it's unreported."

I'm very glad that you've realised this, but you must realise hardly any women would never need to have this pointed to them before they got it - it would have been so much a part of their lived experience since they hit puberty (the lucky ones... many women suffer male sexual violence during childhood).

A couple of other things spring to mind too, Firstly, where you're seeing individual facets of society all of which need to be given airtime in the name of equality, I think we mostly see parts of an interconnected pattern - and one of the important connecting features is the sex of the perpetrators (whether it's domestic violence, sexual violence, or male-on-male punch-ups on a Saturday night), there's a toxic version of masculinity out there which is common to all these acts of violence.

Secondly, and very importantly, we live in a world where men's viewpoint is the default. (If you don't believe me, look at yesterday's newspaper - a quality one, not a tabloid, and count how many articles are about male politicians, male bankers, male business people, male sports people, or go on, say IMDB, look at the last 10 cinema releases and ask how many of the films have a major female character who is there filling any role other than love interest for one of the men). You've come onto one of the very few female centric spaces on the internet, to a thread about male on female violence, and said as a man "why aren't you talking about female on male, or male on male violence?" That's actually, in context, a very aggressive act. You're centre stage in the rest of the whole damn world, now you're coming here and saying "put me centre stage here!"

If you still don't get it, ask if you would, for instance, go onto a website predominantly by and for African Americans, and enter a discussion on, say, the Rodney King case, demanding that they give equal airtime to miscarriages of justice and police brutality involving white people in the name of equality. If you wouldn't do this, ask yourself why it's different when the issue is sex rather than race. If you would, then probably there's no point in us trying to engage with you any further (and I really am trying to be polite here).

Zazzles007 · 20/11/2014 19:50

To all my 'lovely' detractors:

You don't post here regularly; clearly haven't done your research on this particular part of the board, wade in with inflammatory comments and deride posters who have done their research, and have been participating regularly, and then tell them 'you are wrong'. This is not AIBU. Fucking hell. would you go to someone's house, knock on their front door, and then say something inflammatory to them? Because that is the equivalent of what is being done here. If you haven't posted here much, and don't have a posting history on this part of board, try and do your homework before you wade in with off the cuff comments - this is not like other parts of MN. There are a number of more sensible posters who have just introduced themselves to us on FWR who have done just that - take a leaf out of their book.

Sabrinnnnnnnna · 20/11/2014 20:03

The Sian Massey clip was so not accidental - he deliberately barged her. Even the Youtubers thought so (and that's saying something).

Snow1 - the boards are choc-full of 'new male posters' posting pretty ant-women views (but in oh-so-reasonable tones) ever since the Ched Evans media storm. Your posts are indistinguishable from them.

King1982 · 20/11/2014 20:06

Zazzles you are hilarious. What are renting rates for this part of mumsnet? Let me know when your lease is up, so other people can come here and post. Haha

Zazzles007 · 20/11/2014 20:12

Your posts are indistinguishable from them.

I would agree with this statement. The posts I have seen from Snow1 so far point to a young man who perhaps doesn't have a lot of experience with the world, perhaps feels that he is disadvantaged in some way, and has started posting things against women because he feels rather hard done by. And I know what people are going to say - "rude, personal, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." Well guess what, you have come into a space I post on regularly, and I find you just as rude and inflammatory. YOU have no right to silence me.

Zazzles007 · 20/11/2014 20:17

King1982 I see that you mainly post on AIBU - do you have any idea about how to change your posting style for different parts so of MN? Are you capable of that? And you come on here to deride me with what you think is an insult? Please be aware that your posts here have very, very, very little gravitas, very little impact. I have posed this question to someone else, but I think it also applies to you - do you go looking for threads where you can pile on against others? So that you can stir up controversy? What does this say about you? Please have a deeper think about this question, it may well be a life changing action for you.