Is male violence against women ever acceptable?

[LoafersOrLouboutins]

I'm not sure how to articulate this and my 'evidence' is purely anecdotal. Just dipping my toes in the feminism board.

I used to be a keen polo player 16 years ago and regularly played with my boyfriend. On the morning of one match we had a fairly serious argument. He seriously injured me (broken nose, fractured cheekbone and two chipped teeth) during the game. I accepted this as polo is a VERY dangerous sport and people seemed to accept it without asking any questions as to why he was SO determined during that particular game. Most people aren't so competitive they would risk this.

With hindsight, I wonder whether violence against women in sport is a way men conduct their violent fantasies?

People would be horrified if I said my boyfriend did this to me during an argument but in the course of sport it was accepted.

This was many years ago and I probably don't make any sense but it has started to play on my mind that he may have used sport as a cover for his desire to hurt me.

Zazzles, you must realise it is a free forum. Its sad that you can't realise that you were attacking someone. It's sad that can't even apologise.

Other posters are not going silence you by posting. It's a forum, it isn't "your house". It's nothing like people knocking on your door. I presume you have met the people you live with.
You can't get personal to try and silence others. And you don't have any rights to this section of MN.
Get a grip

Zazzles - I go on many sections of mumsnet. So you are actively not encouraging new posters. There is powerful regular posters that make up the rules. New posters are only accepted if they tow the line. The regulars (you) can get away with being rude. The regulars (you) decides which post have gravitas and can be heard.
You see the irony in what kind of system you want set up here on FWR.
(Disclaimer I know zazzles isn't the voice of the regular posters)

Wondered when this would turn into a anti FWR rant

I was forming a picture of what zazzles comments would look like on here.
Not a go at FWR, just making a point. It's not my view of FWR.

"Nope, I disagree, you can clearly see he swerves to his left to run into her! If he was still running with the momentum he was going at he'd have ran clear past her!"

I don't think the claim is that his momentum takes him into her, otherwise as you say he's have continued straight.

The step to the left is back towards the pitch to chase down the ball he's managed to keep in and knock towards the byline,hence why Massey signals for a goal kick when she gets up as the ball has run out down to her right.

My interpretation is that he's come round he sure of the left back, tried to chase down the ball without the greatest of balance and clattered straight into her.
I accept others interpret it differently.

My only point is that those saying its accidental aren't saying its pure momentum, that would be wrong as he takes a very delineate step to his left back towards the pitch.
Those saying its an accident are saying that there's a reason he's taken a step to the left which was not to target Massey but to get on to the ball but as soon as he comes around the defender at that speed he gets his body shape all wrong and at that point his momentum takes him into her.

That's right, we've all beaten our pitchforks into recycled statuettes of cuddly kittens or something. Damn the "being nice to people" decision...

• the side of the left back

• deliberate step

FWIW (and I'd need to see a better clip with a decent camera angle) I'd go with accidental. The hand out moment looks to me like an attempt to minimise damage rather than body checking her (I've done similar).

But back to the original point - like Harold, I've played a lot of mixed 5-a-side and you definitely encounter men who are out there with something to prove (sometimes they don't like playing with women and want to put them in their place, sometimes they're just equal-opportunities inadequate fuckwits who have overly high levels of aggression, an overly high sense of their own importance, and use violence to make up for their lack of skill). I remember one I played against regularly who used to deck the opposition female players every single bloody match (it was a summer league, so we played his team several times, and I quite frequently watched him play other teams while waiting for our match). Eventually, I got so fed up I decided that next time he tried it on, I wasn't going to bother going round him, I was bloody well going straight through him - and 5'3", 9 stone of me took on 5'11", 13 or 14 stone of him (he was quite a chunky bloke) and did literally barge him out the way (I had possession, was perfectly legit, given that he'd long since abandonned any pretence of adhering to the rule that 5-a-side is non contact). Amazing what momentum and sheer bloody mindedness (and a modicum of ball skills) can achieve.

Regarding the clip, I would go for accidental. I think he should have checked the assistant wasn't injured. The non grassy areas are very sloppy around the pitch at that pace. It looks like the assistant is partly blocked from the players view as he runs around the opponent

*slippy

BuffytheReasonableFeminist
"The world you describe seems very straightforward snow, it doesn't look as simple from where I'm sitting. I want to be totally clear that I don't think anything posted on this thread was misogynistic, but something doesn't have to be overtly women hating in order to be so. Some of the most misogynistic (in their ultimate significance) things that can be said can sound lovely and flattering to women. Chivalric, even.

You seem like a friendly, well meaning young man snow and I am glad you're here engaging with us. But you need to consider that the way the world appears on the surface to a young man from a Nordic country may not be how it is experienced by others. That's not meant to be patronising, it's meant to be food for thought. Try imagining that there's more to knowing about a phenomenon than your personal perception of it, and you won't go too far wrong."

Yes, I would agree I tend to have a pretty simplistic view on the world, and also generally a pretty optimistic view too (so I am less likely to see the things that are wrong). I do come from the UK, and have only being in Norway for 4 years, so have experience in a world that isn't as great for women (although obviously not being one I don't appreciate some of crap much).

I guess the whole reason for coming to MN was actually it is sometimes linked from another male dominated forum as a place of "crazy" people. However when seeing a number of the links I suspect a lot of the discussions would be exactly the same if the same post was on the other forum. So I wanted to come here and learn from other points of view/ experience. It is an internet forum, so I guess you're supposed to win the argument rather than learn, but hopefully I can appreciate things in different ways. However since I don't have much experience of being groped in clubs/ violence etc then I can't relate to it as much, and so have to post my own experience to discuss and learn from?

Zazzles007

"I would agree with this statement. The posts I have seen from Snow1 so far point to a young man who perhaps doesn't have a lot of experience with the world, perhaps feels that he is disadvantaged in some way, and has started posting things against women because he feels rather hard done by. And I know what people are going to say - "rude, personal, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." Well guess what, you have come into a space I post on regularly, and I find you just as rude and inflammatory. YOU have no right to silence me."

I'll try and keep this short since some of these replies are getting pretty long. I don't feel hard done by, I know I am very lucky as a white young male to be probably one of the luckiest "people" to be alive. Part of it is by birth, part by choice (for example I chose to come to Norway because there is much less inequality, despite the fact I could probably earn double my salary for the same job elsewhere). I absolutely don't want to silence you - the whole point of the discussions is to learn and talk about things, even if you don't agree. I don't think it was even me who brought it up as an issue, I commented on that (not 100%, but I think it was more of an aside when talking about other stuff).

Sabrinnnnnnnna

You say my views are pretty anti-woman but in reasonable tones. How do you expect me to learn if I am not allowed to post? As I mentioned above, there is not really any way for me to have person experience of many of the feminist issues, so if I don't talk to people who have then I can't learn. And in a discussion I will give my own views/ experiences. Which will be very different to those of some of you. By seeing most of the posts since I started it is clear most of you are wanting equality, not more power as is often portrayed about feminists. So when I contribute a "guy" opinion it is meant as a way of trying to understand things and work together for this. So for example in the comment about Zazzles missing out of girl against guy violence - if I pick up on it (and yes, many of the comments are fair that there is a time and a place and perhaps it wasn't now) then a lot of other guys will too. And it may be a minor issue (I think it's a small thing blown out of proportion), but humans tend to pick up on inequality against them far more than others, then the main message is lost. So potentially it's a tiny bit on learning communication to guys (we're stupid) and a lot of learning from me. I agree it wasn't probably the best place for it, but that's part of the learning process.

(Ok, really time to stop now)!

"It is an internet forum, so I guess you're supposed to win the argument rather than learn"

Hoping the wink meant this was a joke! But I do find MN, and FWR especially, not that interested in "winning" compared to many other places on the internet.

How do you expect me to learn if I am not allowed to post?

I mean this kindly, snow, to give you the benefit of the doubt. You don't 'learn' by blundering onto a thread about male violence against women with a pretty critical opinion of a prominent feminist and campaigner who works in the field of male violence against women.

If you want to learn, you read. Then read some more. And don't blunder onto threads with little digs at other posters/feminists, and call it wanting to learn. Familiarise yourself with the term 'concern trolling' - you're dangerously close.

Yonic

Yes, just the rules of the internet say that's what forums are for! I never see the point in winning in discussions - you don't improve from it. And if you've made up your mind why discuss it since you've "won" already?

Buffy

I guess I don't really expect people to give their time unless they want to. The posts have been getting (way way) too long! Just I have been finding it really interesting and I guess since a lot of the feminist issues are not so relevant here it's hard to find people to talk about them with as they haven't experienced them like in the UK/ US etc.

Apologies if you feel I am forcing the discussion to be about myself/ guys. I guess being a mostly female board there is less discussion (on some issues) about things being a problem in that many people agree. So it's not so easy to learn from that style of conversation after the first few posts. The thread about Caring is a good example - a couple of amazing posts and the article, and then generally lots of people agreeing (not that it's bad, just there isn't much discussion). However I have been reading some of the other discussions without posting too, hence my posting being on 2 or 3 topics. Potentially it would be better to create a separate discussion with my newie questions to stop stealing the limelight as such? And time to stop again,

Snow, if you think of it more like a chat in a pub between people who are friendly and less like a debating society, that might help.

Sometimes posters agree and sometimes they disagree , but unsurprisingly, there's a fair amount of common ground. No one really does much "devil's advocacy " ie taking a contrary position for the sake of debate.

If you want to know more on a thread where many posters are agreeing, it's probably more productive to ask "why do you think that? I don't know much about this topic" than to wait for controversy in the hopes of learning more.

I've always felt that playing Devil's Advocate isn't appropriate in FWR. Especially not on emotive subjects like violence against women, rape, domestic violence - often the posters here are posting about their own lived experiences as women, and to have someone come on and play devil's advocate can be triggering to say the least.

There was such a good quote on here a while back about men discussing feminism academically:

There are the occasions that men—intellectual men, clever men, engaged men—insist on playing devil's advocate, desirous of a debate on some aspect of feminist theory or reproductive rights or some other subject generally filed under the heading: Women's Issues. These intellectual, clever, engaged men want to endlessly probe my argument for weaknesses, want to wrestle over details, want to argue just for fun—and they wonder, these intellectual, clever, engaged men, why my voice keeps raising and why my face is flushed and why, after an hour of fighting my corner, hot tears burn the corners of my eyes. Why do you have to take this stuff so personally? ask the intellectual, clever, and engaged men, who have never considered that the content of the abstract exercise that's so much fun for them is the stuff of my life.

I am pretty bad for taking the other side of a debate. Not so much for the argument, more it's the way I personally learn better (by hearing the different points with their reasoning, and also meaning I have to think of the flip side, and therefore what is better/ correct?). Sometimes it is also to challenge others on their opinions if I disagree. I'll try and reduce it here, and also be a member for longer before wading in straight away. I also do the blundering straight into things at work if that helps?! (need to sort it out there too).

Sabrinnnnnnnna
"I mean this kindly, snow, to give you the benefit of the doubt. You don't 'learn' by blundering onto a thread about male violence against women with a pretty critical opinion of a prominent feminist and campaigner who works in the field of male violence against women.

If you want to learn, you read. Then read some more. And don't blunder onto threads with little digs at other posters/feminists, and call it wanting to learn. Familiarise yourself with the term 'concern trolling' - you're dangerously close."

I didn't mean it to be that way, see above. The commons about the campaigner were not a dig at her, more that a few of her interpretations could be viewed differently. I did completely agree with most of her points, but hadn't posted that at the time.

In many ways your most recent post above mine is absolutely correct for me (apart from being clever)! I'll try and think more before posting.

And apologies to anyone who has been hurt (can you edit posts here)?

Nope, no edit function!

king I have seen a number of posts from you before, and its a shame that you don't seem to realise how goady your posts in FWR are. Why do you look at FWR as your own personal AIBU? Its not you know. And yes I have posted on AIBU occasionally, and it is a totally different posting style. I still don't understand why you won't answer my questions about posting style that were directed to you.

And how do you know that I am not actively encouraging new posters? I have posted in a recent thread and welcomed some new comers in. It is actually you I am trying to discourage, but you don't seem to get it. Why is that? Do you find the reading and comprehension of the English language difficult or problematic? Do you have trouble understanding the nuances of a paragraph of words? Do you not get the subtleties and subtexts in the English language?