Men who fantasise about rape (Trigger?)

[alicemalice]

Hope I don't trigger anyone with this thread.

I've been online dating for a bit and chatting to this guy who I seemed to have a lot in common with.

Looking at his answers on Okcupid, there's one that said 'Do you have fantasies about rape?' to which he replied, yes.

This really bothers me. I understand it's not real and I suspect rape fantasies are quite common. But still, I find it very off-putting.

I also find it odd that he answered it so publicly.

Are rape fantasies so common they're seen as fairly normal?

But, Joe, I am that person you are referring to in the abstract. So that makes it personal. I find it strange that you can't see that.

So by doing what I do Empire, I am "normalising" rape culture?

I'd contend the opposite - I have put a lot of time, effort and expertise into making sure that as many people as it is possible for me to inform and protect are informed and protected.

I'm really not referring to you Frau, in the abstract or otherwise. Sorry if you think that, but I'm really not. I'm talking about men wanting to rape women. What's that got to do with you? I don't understand.

But Frau, your fantasies seem quite divorced from what happens in everyday life. Given that men do rape and assault women on a frequent basis, it seems much more threatening and real.

It's the backdrop of the reality that women live with that's the problem (and the difference) here.

I'm not here to defend myself from character assassination by implication.

I am what I am I do what I do and I've never had any complaints. Thankfully, we don't yet have the thought police. I don't really see the big deal in what the man put on OK Cupid - let you decide at an early stage to ditch him. If you have a problem with it, beyond not having any more to do with him, I don't really see what else you can do?

Enjoy the rest of your evening folks.

Blimey.

I wasn't arguing judgement, but semantics. It's impossible to fantasise about being a rape victim. It is possible to fantasise about being the rapist.

You can't fantasise about unwanted sex, because by fantasising about it you make it wanted.

In theory I don't have any problem with a person having whatever fantasy they like if it stays fantasy. In reality I would feel uneasy, perhaps unsafe, with a man who I knew had a rapist fantasy. Just as I would never ever leave my children in the care of somebody who I knew fantasised about children - even if I trusted that they would never act on that.

I'm uncomfortable with this thread. So, yes, I will hide it after writing this post. I have serious and carefully-thought concerns about sexual activities - not fantasies, in general, but actualisations - that weave power & control into erotica. My concerns are both political and psychological. I can't discuss them here, or anywhere much for that matter, due to the inevitability of being misheard by those who would take offence. They will take offence if their identity's bound up with sexual power games, and they will if they're keen to silence voices expressing concern about legal sexual activities.

Many things that are legal involve abuses of power. Many of them concern me. Quite a few are hard to discuss when members of the discussion have some kind of vested interest. One has to pick one's battles; I'm not picking this one.

As far as I can tell, from a nowhere-near-statistically-valid sampling of anecdotes on the subject, actually wanting to act out a rape scenario is pretty rare. (Been asked for it once in twenty-five years of being sexually active.)

On the other hand, wanting rough, boisterous, utterly overpowering leaves-bruises-in-intimate-places sex? Practically vanilla, that. (It's also bloody hard work for whoever's delivering the experience, I might add.)

As for the tosspot publicly saying he has rape fantasies (unless he's clarifying right there and then that it's as victim) on a vanilla dating site? Idiot. Being into delivering above-mentioned rough sex, well, fine, find someone who's into that; they're not rare creatures. Being into receiving the kind of trust and love that goes with utter submission and surrender of control? See you at the next munch.

Having fantasies about committing serious criminal offences? The only fucking you should get to do is in the general direction of off, pal.

Rape is a violent assault. Anyone fantasising about violently assaulting another person - regardless of sexual orientation/context should be steered clear of. It's not rocket science is it?

I'm a little confused, I'm no psychosexual expert, but surely exploring the psychological landscape around rape is wise? Be it exploring the correlation between those who fixate through fantasy, and leave it there, and those that go on to act it out.

However I think there is a lot of mileage in examining male behaviour that results in rape, but in the mind of the perpetrator was not the intention.

Hey. Longtime lurker in FWR, joined to post on this thread.

I just wanted to give my perspective, but I don't for one second claim its universal. I have always fantasised about losing control/being controlled by a member of the opposite sex, even when I was a very young child and the fantasies weren't sexual, as I had never had that experience.

This is problematic for me in the feminist sense as I am a rape survivor and have been in two relationships involving violent domestic abuse. This happened in later life, my fantasies predate this. It is very difficult not to blame myself for the things that have happened to me.

I wanted to challenge the common idea that female "rape fantasies" are always soft focus and ravishment rather than real degradation. It's not that easy. I agree that it is not possible for rape to be consensual. But some people do genuinely for whatever reason (and yes some of those reasons are disturbing and concerning) get off on someone else genuinely taking control and being degraded, humiliated in a way that most people would find uncomfortable to witness (and I'm not sure it's wrong that people would react that way to it).

It's a complex thing. I recently have been corresponding online (not met in person) with a guy who I met on a mainstream fetish site even though that's not really my thing. He very much wants to degrade and humiliate women. I like him in that I like talking to him and am sexually excited by the ideas I have of him, but also I find him very concerning in that he has written fantasies about me personally and they are what I consider totally objectifying and psychologically sadistic to an extent that even I find shocking. I have met various men on these sites who have stipulated no limits and no safeword whatsoever in our fantasy rape scenario. I have nearly gone through with this on a couple of occasions, but chickened out. Why did I want to? I don't know. I wish I didn't, to be honest. But it's not as simple as people think.

venus, there are huge numbers of women and men like you. 40 years ago Nancy Friday was writing about common sexual fantasies of men and women in her book. There are huge numbers of people who are like this. As I have said a few times on the thread it is almost impossible for people with different sexualities to understand each other and it is hardly worth the effort of discussing it. However most of us would agree everyone should stay safe.

BB of course is right semantically that "It's impossible to fantasise about being a rape victim. It is possible to fantasise about being the rapist.
You can't fantasise about unwanted sex, because by fantasising about it you make it wanted."
However the men and women who fantasise about being a victim or perpetrator would probably argue that the eroticism is that they are getting what they don't want within that loving safe consensual relationship. Of course you could say that by giving that man or woman what they don't want because it arouses them means you are in a sense giving them what they do want.

It's all pretty simple. James fantasise about being dominated and whipped and being penetrated roughly. Mary gets off on whipping James - everyone is happy. Ditto reverse the sexes. However if they each end up with someone who isn't into that then the sexual side of their marriage will probably not be as good as it could be. If James ends up with June and June could never imagine being aroused by caning her husband then they might well have problems. Thus the sooner they talk about this in relationships the better.

Venus - I am not qualified to judge your reasons for wanting to have the sort of sex you want.

What I do have experience of is online fetishists.

I could write a guide to staying safe online, but really that's not relevant. You need to remember that you don't know this person. You also need to remember that if he's making you uncomfortable in cyber space, you don't need him in your RL space.

Anyone who (well, any man technically, but I also apply this to sexual assault by penetration) puts their dick where it isn't wanted is a rapist. That's the fact, that's how it is, and anyone who says otherwise is a dick and best avoided.

Anyone who is pushing your boundaries and not listening to your no is a dick and best avoided.

And anyone who is saying "no safewords" you should run like fuck as fast as you can in the opposite direction.

I am a Domme, a lifestyle Domme, it's who I am to the core of my being, I can't change it.

I am at the beginning stages of dating a new man. Our first date was to an all you can eat Chinese and we talked all night about life, work, family. Our next date is going to be grabbing a burger and going to a quiet pub. And we'll talk about life, work and family.

I appreciate it's different if you want to meet to partake in just a scene, but even then - get a different mobile so that you can bin it if he gets troublesome, don't give out your real name, don't share photos - all the usual keep yourself safe stuff. Tell someone where you are going and who you are meeting - I did that on Tuesday night I told a friend where we were going and who I was meeting (slightly different because we had met in RL at an event, but similar)

Don't partake in a scene with some random off the internet FGS. If you are that interested, go to a munch, (they're easy to find on the Black site) meet some real kinsters in the flesh (we are really just ordinary!) and take your time and take it slowly.

And remember - if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

Can I first state that, as a man, I have never had a rape fantasy. Never once. The thought of hurting people does nothing for me.

However, it probably is true that many men have fantasies which are, if not equivalent to a rape fantasy, have violent or assaultive features.. Equally, there are probably women who get off on being degarded, humiliated and violated. Rightly or wrongly, power dynamics are part of our psycho-sexual landscape. Power has been a premise of hetrosexual culture for centuries, so it's hardly surprising that it routinely features, to some degree, in the fantasies of indviduals and their sexual relationships.

Equally, it is certainly true that we all have fleeting thoughts or fantasies which are 'dark' or 'taboo'. But I should think many people do not invest in them them or incorporate them into their relationships, but file them away in the back of their minds. We are all, quite rightly, a bit repressed. That's civilization. The problem arises when such thoughts take hold to such an extent that they have to be actualized. Some of sexual fetishes are healthy ways to act out this darker side in a safe and respectful way. I get that. But I would say if a rape fantasy (even if it is being simulated consensually) identifies a man as someone who enjoys the thought of raping women. That man should be avoided I think. That is not a man who likes women.

However, this whole discussion does raise some very interesting moral and political questions about where the line should be drawn between the normal range of fantasy and deviance. And from a political perspective, is a feminist women countenancing a fantasy in which she's degraded or dominated a contradiction?

Interesting questions and I don't have the answers. All I do know is that saying sexual fantasies are just private matters that can be divorced from society and culture doesn't hold; and that a rape fantasy is (or should be) on the other side of the line. We should enjoy an imaginative and creative sex life while at the same being self-questioning, socio-politically aware and trying to cultivate a healthy and compassionate attitude towards our partners, women and human beings generally.

Joe - I've just read your other posts.

I wish you well in sorting out your demons, but you'll have to excuse me not engaging with you wrt sexual issues any longer. You have, by your own admission, issue around sex and I don't think it would be fair of me to continue to try to debate with you. I hope you get it all sorted.

I wish you well too FrauHelga. :)

I agree Joe that sexual fantasies cannot simply be waved away as private matters. We exist in and contribute to our culture. Unfortunately that culture involves domination and power including male domination and female submission. This influenced our thought and feelings and, in turn, our words and actions contribute to the culture. I do not believe there is a single person on this earth who should be abused or degraded. This is not an issue of consent it is an issue of respect for human dignity.

Totally agree FloraFox!

But I would say if a rape fantasy (even if it is being simulated ""consensually) identifies a man as someone who enjoys the thought of raping women. That man should be avoided I think. That is not a man who likes women.""

As a woman who enjoys Rape Fantasy/Role play, I can't agree with that.

I'm on various Web sites and I will agree that the majority of posters on some, are very damaged people.

But then I've met other groups of Dom/Sub (I'm in the Sub category) that are rational, respectful, caring etc Human Beings, they just like sexual role play.

I've also been in a lifestyle situation rather than just a setting up of a scene situation.

I was reading a thread in AIBU about the poster being asked if she could be submissive. The reactions to this were OTT.

It's always a difficult conversation to have and when it should take place.

Venus, don't ever consider meeting any of those men.

On one of the sites I regularly go on, the question was asked, by someone new to being a Sub, if she could speculate "No anal".

It was nice to see that almost every Dom, answered "absolutely" (with detailed explanations) and the one or two that said "No" have been hounded off the site.

The Doms that I follow on Twitter tend to post "quotes" that correctly sum up how the relationship should be and what it is really about.

There are abusive men/rapists who use these Sites/situations as a means to carry out their crimes.

I know no genuine people who deny that.

You say you don't agree with the statement you quoted but the rest of your post makes it look like you do agree with it.