Lurkers ahoy! Friendly thread to dip your toe in the murky seas of feminism

[cailindana]

A thread specifically for those who feel a bit out of their depth.

Ask questions, make comments.

All queries taken seriously. No sarcasm, no putdowns.

No, that's my thoughts too :(

Cotton ceiling is entitled language. I don't think it's an issue of awareness though. It's also consistent with the "don't label me but you can't object to being called 'cis'".

Another lurker popping their head in here. I always enjoy reading the conversations here and have learned a lot. Am going to start reading the Dworkin books, as well as delusions of gender.

Hi Lolly.

"Cotton ceiling" is such a disgusting term I struggle to even think about it. It captures in a nutshell while the whole TA fuckwittery is so pernicious and woman-hating.

FrauHelga wrote - "given that I don't agree that as a woman every single aspect of my life is constrained, criticised, belittled, devalued and threatened"

I think most people can live lives where they have at least some freedom, respect, value, and safety from sexual violence etc.
But:
It seems to me that for each social group, whether it be Chinese-American millionaires or white, working class Scots, the boys and men of that group will have more of those things than girls and women of that group. I also think the boys and men have/are given/take/can expect more of those things because they are boys and men. Why? Should that continue?

Do you agree? Is "my feminism" anything like "your feminism?"

Popping my head in to say I'm about a third of the way through Delusions of Gender . I want to catch up with the full thread later but Buffy for the recommendation, its a great read.

Bump.

I'm another lurker who finds herself nodding and agreeing, but doesn't often contribute (X-ray physics not often the topic in FWR!). I have found myself more aware of feminism since being the mother of a daughter.

Hello Friendly Thread,

I have been reading the current thread about prostitution with interest. I was going to ask for some more info but it didn't quite sit right in the discussion so I thought I'd kindly ask here, where no question is too dumb. (Flora if you are reading, your posts on that thread particularly strike a cord with me).

So... I had a quite heated argument about this topic the other day with two people (men, natch) who argued that legalising prostitution would solve all the problems with it, as sex work is a choice and no more exploitative than working in a factory. I absolutely do not agree with this and kind of know why, but I couldn't articulate it at the time (it was late, I had had a couple of drinks and was tired, so I just got angry and left ). So, I wondered if anyone could point me to some introductory reading/research on this issue that would help me firm up my thoughts? There was one link to some research on how legalised prostitution increases trafficking, I will have a read of that when I have a spare hour or two.

Rachel Moran's book Paid For is eye opening on the subject.

Thanks Puffins, it's on the reading list

Thanks Katee

Rebecca Mott writes a very moving and often difficult to read blog about her experiences as a survivor of prostitution.

rebeccamott.net/

There are also good pieces on this Canadian site as they have recently adopted a similar model:

feministcurrent.com/category/prostitution-2/

This article about legal brothels in Germany shows that legalisation would not solve problems.

s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/projects/welcome-to-paradise/

Men justifying prostitution is very unedifying, isn't it?

Thank you Flora. Yes, unedifying sums it up quite well...

I read that Telegraph piece yesterday when I saw it on the other thread. The last few paragraphs really drove it home. I am sure if I said to the men I was talking to "If you think prostitution is such a free choice and no different from working in a factory, would be fine if it were legalised, would you be happy for your sister, mum or girlfriend to work as a prostitute?". Something tells me their answer would be more "Good heavens, no" rather than the yes that would be the logical conclusion to their arguments.

Katee - and would those men be happy for themselves, their brothers and sons to work as prostitutes? Gay or straight, prostitutes are having sex with men they don't fancy after all.

Yes Yonic, that is of course true. I am sure they would still say "well they are making a choice. I wouldn't make that choice". The reason why they don't need to make that choice does not factor in their thoughts.

and now they are disputing facts about rape with me. "how do you know rape is under reported? And there are ways to prevent yourself from being raped." I don't want to say "I know it is under-reported because I have been attacked by 3 different males and have never reported it and know for a fact that I am not the only one. And the first time was when I was 8, how should I have prevented that?".

Maybe I need some new friends. Trouble is, nearly everyone I know is like this.

KateeGee wrote - "now they are disputing facts about rape with me. "how do you know rape is under reported?""

I'd ask them why they believe that rape is not under-reported.

Can I dip my tiny little toe in and say hello?

Is a drunk woman able to give consent to intercourse?

Hello four!

Partial, do you mean with reference to Ched Evans?

The consent point is about capacity to give consent - if a man or woman is too drunk (or drugged up, or asleep, or drowsy reacting to hay fever meds or whatever) to have capacity then proceeding with sexual contact is sexual assault.

Partial in my experience no she is not.

Dependingon the level of drunk ness, which Yonic explained.

Thanks Buffy and Vesuvia. It's really stressed me out today, i actually feel a bit panicked. I am fed up with "if I may play devil's advocate", I am sick of arguing why I think I am more at risk of shit than you, my white male middle class friend. I don't think it, I bloody know it because I have had to live through it. But that's not evidence enough for them. It feels like I am fighting a losing battle. It would be easier to not care.