Lurkers ahoy! Friendly thread to dip your toe in the murky seas of feminism

[cailindana]

A thread specifically for those who feel a bit out of their depth.

Ask questions, make comments.

All queries taken seriously. No sarcasm, no putdowns.

[TerrariaMum]

Me too, wasabi. I lurk and read loads. I just don't often have time to post or anything to add. I have found though that I take things less personally the more I rread.

[deadwitchproject]

I'm also a lurker/occasional poster. I enjoy reading the FWR board and have found myself questioning and challenging so much casual sexism in the workplace, with friends, family etc. I think this is partly through reading here but also because as a mother of two sons, I want them to be open minded. Fortunately their father is happy to say he's a feminist too.

[PenguinsIsSleepDeprived]

Gimme- I said I would come back regarding feminism and breastfeeding. There isn't much I can add to Ros's amazing post. But there are a number of things which anger me at a feminist level.

In particular, the number of friends I have who have added a bedtime bottle 'so DH can get involved'. And I do understand it's hard with a cluster feeding boob monster who doesn't want to be held by anyone else. I do, we had two. But you know what, who nearly always buys the formula, keeps an eye on when they are running out, chooses the steriliser, sterilises the bottle, makes the bottle.... The man has the 'experience' and the woman does the work to enable it. Properly getting involved would mean all of it. And it also feeds into the point Ros made about men not being used to being the 'sides'.

Even more annoying is the friends I can think of who ff or mixed fed so their partners could help with the night feed. But whose 'help' faded to nothing within a month, leaving the mother with all the extra work.

It all seems to be about making it revolve around the dads, instead of properly mucking in.


Also, yes I totally agree with the comment about breastfeeding being promoted, but not supported, and that being a feminist issue. Totally agree. Similar to birth. So women feel that they have failed, when they have been failed.

[PenguinsIsSleepDeprived]

Oh goodness, I have promoted myself to 'panel member' too haven't I? . I am not nearly so well read as many on here. Just trying to join in the discussion.

On make-up, I love make up. My random thoughts:

• I need to be aware that all of this grooming stuff takes up a lot of time that DH doesn't need to put in. I remember vividly when we were both working and occasionally had super early starts. DH could get out in about 20 minutes if he needed to. I needed at least 35. 15 minutes less sleep for me...

• I need to be aware that this grooming stuff takes money. Money I could be spending elsewhere if I wasn't engaging with it.

• I love make up. I love blending shadows and drawing eyeliner. The dramatic stuff is more fun anyway. More creative.

• Part of my feminist work on myself has been to be confident going out without make up. I want it to be a choice I make daily, not something I feel I have to do. I think if you wouldn't dare do the school run or pop to the shops without make up, it has probably become something more oppressive than fun. If you'd rather wear it because you like it, but if you ran out of time you'd be happy to go without, that's probably healthier. Don't you think?

[halfdrunkcoffee]

Thanks cailin (and just realised I didn't read through my post very well and it's a bit incoherent!) I like your post on SAHMs.

[ZombiePuffinsAreREAL]

Grimble I agree on the Ched Evans little handmaiden point. Sorry, feminists but I do. I also have a real problem with women who promulgate rape myths or come along with the 'well, we all know so many women lie about having been raped' tripe. I understand why they say things like that, I get the psychology behind it, but it still makes me cross.

I think I answered the bit about the revenge porn on the thread.

[TheFirstOfHerName]

I occasionally post on FWR threads. I am a feminist but it's not the thing I am most interested in talking about most of the time. Sometimes if a particular issue comes up in the news then I'll come on here to read what people are saying. The rest of the time I am being an everyday feminist on the rest of the board and in real life.

One thing that slightly puts me off posting in FWR is my concern that whatever I say, I'll be offending somebody. For example, a poster (not in FWR) started a thread asking for positive things about having a daughter. I made the comment that there are many positive things about my daughter, but none of them are specifically related to her having a vulva rather than a penis. If I had posted that in FWR, I would worry that I would get flamed for assuming that all daughters have vulvas, and be accused of being cis-centric or something.

The above example is probably not a good example, but I am trying to say that there is a perception of FWR that it contains some of the professionally offended, which might be scaring some posters away.

[PenguinsIsSleepDeprived]

First - You really wouldn't. At least not on any of the threads I have seen. In fact, a lot of that terminology doesn't even get used all that often. I'm a regular on those boards and I'd have made exactly the same sort of comment.

[BellaSolanum]

First Admitedly I haven't been on here long, but have seen far more accusations of being professionally offended that people actually getting offended for the sake of it. It's the same perception I've seen on other forums and on places like Twitter though, so it does seem to be a prevalent idea when it comes to feminism.

Zombie I actually did know a girl who lied about being raped (know she was lying because I was with the guy she accused all night) and I did spend a long time blaming girls like her for making life harder for those who've actually been raped. Hard not to really.

[5madthings]

Actually the whole cis centric and transgender debate is something I down understand. Tbh I don't know all the shorthand and I have been put off reading it as there is lots of anger. It seems to be dividing some feminist groups? There just seems a lot of discord and I don't know what about so if anyone wants to do an idiot's guide to the whole thing that would be great! :)

[ZombiePuffinsAreREAL]

Bella... I know there are women who lie... they make me more than cross, but, in the general scheme of things far fewer women lie than prevailing wisdom would have us all believe, iyswim?

[5madthings]

Don't understand.

[PenguinsIsSleepDeprived]

I don't really get it either 5. TBH I stay away after a thread I started under a different name way back in the day about something not even related went amazingly off piste.

But part of it is about transactivists who seem to argue that feminists are being exclusionary about talking about things like, say, childbirth being a women's issue because, of course, those who are trans cannot give birth and therefore not all women can give birth. Or something like that. It all gets a bit Alice through the Looking Glass for me.

[AsAMan]

If I had posted that in FWR, I would worry that I would get flamed for assuming that all daughters have vulvas, and be accused of being cis-centric or something.


Oh god no. Not on MN. THe feminism seems to be a generally sensible sort so far.

[AsAMan]

CIS means you agree that you are the same gender as your biological sex.

Trans activist say anyone not trans is CIS.

SOme feminist agree with this statement but radical feminst think gender is a social construct and that gender is a load of shit and that women don't have women's brains. The only thing that makes us women is that we were born with vaginas and raised and socialized as women, so saying we "agree" with our gender is a bit rubbish. I don't see myself as having a female brain and don't think I am privileged either. I also don't think feminism oppresses trans people.

[BellaSolanum]

Oh yes, I agree, sorry I wasn't clear. I was just saying I could see why people get so fixated on how it's those women to blame for other's rapists getting away with it. It's not logical, it's a very emotional response.

[BellaSolanum]

5mad It is a huge and confusing argument tbh.

Mostly hinges on disagreements over what various words mean. Specifically, "woman", "gender", "cis" and "trans".

So far as I can see it goes;
Woman means either

• Anyone who identifies as a woman (trans activists and some feminists)
  
• Someone born with a uterus etc (radfems and some trans people)
  

Gender is either

• Something innate that can differ from the physical sex (trans activists and some feminists)
  
• A societal construct which is learnt from socialisation but otherwise not real (radfems and some trans people)
  

Trans means either

• An umbrella term for anyone who doesn't feel comfortable with their assigned gender (trans activists and some feminists)
  
• A term for those suffering body dysmorphia relating to their physical sex (some trans people, some radfems)
  
• A term that should only be used for those who've undergone, or are in the process of, sex reassignment surgery (some trans people, some radfems)
  

Cis is then a problem as it is meant to mean "opposite of trans", but as you can see from the last bit there's no agreed on definition to be in opposition to. So cis could mean anything from

• Someone not undergoing sex reassignment surgery to
  
• Someone not suffering body dysmorphia to
  
• Anyone whose innate gender matches their physical sex
  
• Anyone who is comfortable with their assigned gender to
  
• Anyone who doesn't identify as trans
  

And as radfems (and some trans people) don't believe in gender even existing they argue that they can't be cis if the definition is "someone who is comfortable with their assigned gender" or "whose innate gender matches their physical sex".

Cis is also used by some to say that those who are cis have privilege over those who are trans. And the counter argument is that being a "cis" woman is no privilege at all, especially in comparison to those who've lived the beginning of their lives with male privilege.

Um.. so much for trying to keep this simple..

[LittleBlueHermit]

Late to the party on this one (different time zone), but a few half-baked thoughts on breastfeeding:

Women spend all our lives being told our bodies aren't good enough, while at the same time being told our body's value is primarily as a sex object. As much as I hate using the word, I did find it empowering to realise that my body had a real use. Breasts can sustain life!

But even then people try to tell women their bodies aren't good enough. Formula used to be marketed as 'better' because it was scientifically designed by men. Women still get told that their milk might not be 'good enough.'

I don't really know where I'm going with this, but its an important factor underlying these discussions.

FWIW, I couldn't have breastfed DD without DH's help. He came to a breastfeeding class with me. Then, in those crucial first few days, I didn't have the strength to lift DD myself. He was the one who positioned her, and propped her up with cushions, and checked the latch, and corrected it when needed.

[5madthings]

Wow! What a minefield. That all helps though thankyou.

I think I err on gender and gender stereotypes being a social construct. We have a biological sex ie what we are born with but even that is not clear cut and of course some people don't identify with their biological sex. And clearly gender identity is real I think but whether it's innate or a construct I have no idea but I see a lot of it as social construct rather than innate. I shall have to read some more but I don't think it's something I would enter into debate over as I said it seems very hostile.

Also re feminism being discriminatory re discussing childbirth etc well not all biological women can or even want to have children so... But ultimately they are feminist issues.

[GinAndSonic]

About to fall into bed, but need this to pop up in "threads im on" or ill forget it exists because im tired and tipsy right now

So yeah, hi! Ill be back tomorrow!

[LittleBlueHermit]

And cailin, thanks for the SAHM post!

[5madthings]

Oh and 're bfeeding def a feminist issue, lots of pressure, bugger all help! And it us so divisive :( I think it's an issue that is taken so personally.

Fwiw three children solely bfed until three years and two who went onto formula after a fee months, one as I had post natal psychosis and I beat myself up for a long time over that and then the other I chose to switch because bfeeding just wasn't working and I had four other children to look after! Bottles didn't really work either... Undiagnosed lip tie I later discovered. If I ever have another I will try to bfeed and would love it to work but am not going to beat myself up over it.

[BellaSolanum]

It is very hostile, there's a lot of talk of killing "TERFs" (trans exclusionary radical feminists) and terms like truscum (trans people who believe you need dysmorphia to be trans). Plenty of Doxxing and no-platforming. Not a pleasant area to wade into.

And I am well aware I've done exactly that. Worst I've got so far is an addition to the blockbot luckily.