Lurkers ahoy! Friendly thread to dip your toe in the murky seas of feminism

[cailindana]

A thread specifically for those who feel a bit out of their depth.

Ask questions, make comments.

All queries taken seriously. No sarcasm, no putdowns.

[RufusTheReindeer]

Got told by a friend that I'd put feminism back a hundred years because I don't put petrol in the car!!

Did make me laugh...ish

[grimbletart]

Fat fingers now. - should be "in a high profile case" and "no man".

[Mitzimaybe]

Hi, thanks for this nice unscary thread!

I'm a feminist but I feel as if I keep getting things wrong. I posted about name change on marriage (admittedly in AIBU so I suppose it's my own fault) and then I felt like I was put in the dunce's corner for saying "maiden name" and for wanting to debate it with my fiance instead of just telling him, and even for raising it in the first place. What's wrong with wanting him to see my point of view and asking for help to put it in a way he will "get it"? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2149385-To-want-to-keep-my-maiden-name

Have I missed "that" AIBU thread you're all mentioning? Could someone pls link it or say what the title is?

[DuelingFanjo]

Why don't you put petrol in the car?

[cailindana]

5mad: "I myself have/am a sahm and it's a role that I love, that exhausts me at times and I am ref feeling ready/excited/nervous of doing something new as the madthings get older. But I have a niggling feeling/worry that being a sahm is seen as letting the side down, not feminist etc. I guess like some industries it's the wider impact of your role, the message it sends? Sorry an waffling and being distracted by small people."

I absolutely will not subscribe to any nonsense that being a SAHM is "not feminist" or "letting the side down."

Looking after children is an absolutely essential job, it is pivotal to the survival of the species, without it we would literally die out. Any idea that is not a worthwhile job is utter utter bollocks. DO NOT SWALLOW THE BOLLOCKS!! Oh dear, not a good image there.

Where feminists have a problem with being a SAHM is the value that society places on that role. The fact is, by becoming a SAHM you are massively sacrificing all access to your own money (which in a capitalist society, puts you in a severely vulnerable position) and access to status (as being a SAHM is seen as "doing nothing.") And yet, women are fed the utter scrote leavings that they should be "grateful" to have the "luxury" of being a SAHM. As a feminist I will.not.have.it.

A man with a SAH wife is the one who should be grateful. The fellow adult who has thrown her lot in with him has voluntarily chosen to make herself vulnerable and cut herself off from status so that his children can be excellently cared for day in and day out by someone who loves them more than anyone in their entire lives will ever love them. Not only that, but SAHMs are trained to believe that looking after children is "nothing" and so the man has the added luxury of a woman who feels obliged to wash his socks, cook his dinners and generally be his maid. He has the untold luxury of having children without any physical demands (as he does not experience pregnancy, childbirth or breastfeeding) and additionally to have those children raised by the the absolute best childcare available while he continues his career and doesn't even have to cook his own food or clean his own house. The SAHM meanwhile, is devalued, made to feel she's "doing nothing," and if the man decides to up and leave one day, she's up shit creek without a paddle.

Be a SAHM but be aware that what you are doing has a lot of sacrifice and risk involved. Demand that that is valued and recognised.

[PenguinsIsSleepDeprived]

[CatKisser]

A man with a SAH wife is the one who should be grateful. The fellow adult who has thrown her lot in with him has voluntarily chosen to make herself vulnerable and cut herself off from status so that his children can be excellently cared for day in and day out by someone who loves them more than anyone in their entire lives will ever love them. Not only that, but SAHMs are trained to believe that looking after children is "nothing" and so the man has the added luxury of a woman who feels obliged to wash his socks, cook his dinners and generally be his maid. He has the untold luxury of having children without any physical demands (as he does not experience pregnancy, childbirth or breastfeeding) and additionally to have those children raised by the the absolute best childcare available while he continues his career and doesn't even have to cook his own food or clean his own house. The SAHM meanwhile, is devalued, made to feel she's "doing nothing," and if the man decides to up and leave one day, she's up shit creek without a paddle.
Be a SAHM but be aware that what you are doing has a lot of sacrifice and risk involved. Demand that that is valued and recognised.

The next time a SAHM/WOHM pops up, someone paste this! It really does say it all.

[rosdearg]

[stands on chair and applauds Cailin madly]

[5madthings]

Thanks cailin but I have to say I do not do everything. Obviously when dp is out at work I do, and he does shift work with long and odd hours. But when he is at home He is 110% hands on, he cooks more than I do, does laundry, packed lunches, helps with homework, does school runs etc etc. Basically when he is at work I am 'working' but once he is at home we both pitch in to get what needs doing done. That includes the madthings, four boys who will not be raised to have women do everything so they cook, tidy etc and are basically being trained in how to run a household. And it's very much the expectation/rule that everyone pitches in, we are a family and that's what we do.

Dp def appreciates what I do. I often despair reading comments on mnet about women who do it all and their husband's who don't/won't pull their weight. And the men don't notice/don't see it etc. It's just bollocks!

I think we were lucky in that we had ds1 young, whilst at uni, but we hadn't got engrained habits about housework we were both learning! And as we were both students we were both around when ds1 was tiny, he saw just how hard it was and we both muddled along together.

Obviously He couldn't do the bfeeding, over ten years of bfeeding including some through preg and tandem feeding but he def appreciated how relentless it is and how groundhog day it can be. That's not to say he is perfect, we have had our moments including almost splitting up as he could be moody but it's something we have worked out. I say worked out I made it clear I wouldn't put up with it.

I do see the value in what I do but when some family members don't agree with your parenting choices/styles and say you are wasting your education... It can sting and I have seen discussion on here about it. But yes to it being imp, and for myself as a feminist I want to raise my daughter well but I really want to raise the four madboys to be good men, decent people and I worry about the media and socialization etc.

[Mitzimaybe]

Oh, I think I found the thread - if lots of women come on Mumsnet why are so few on the FWR threads?

[RufusTheReindeer]

duelling

DH does it

I'm more than capable of doing it...just can't be arsed

I don't think being a lazy cow is a feminist issue...it might be I suppose it's not like anyone is stopping me because I'm a woman

I don't clean toilets either...again I would if I had to and I am capable of it...I just don't want to

[cailindana]

5mad, are you married?

[5madthings]

Nope it's something we have thought of but not got round to. We have sorted out wills, insurances, mortgages etc so I am covered financially and we have a joint account and I have my own account. It's annoying I would quite happily have a civil partnership but I do resent what marriage stands for iyswim.

[cailindana]

I get that. As long as you have the legalities sorted out that's the main thing.

[5madthings]

Except I feel I am cutting my nose off to spite my face with my stance on marriage. Dp would happily get married, just registry office etc, we are not religious and see no need for fancy stuff or spending lots of money. We would both rather spend it on the house/nice holiday. And ultimately it does afford me greater protection.

I would keep my name though!

I do think it would be a nice thing to do as the madthings are getting older so they can be a part of it iyswim? It's just a shame that it is so steeped in patriarchy and ownership.

So many little things that signify male superiority, I don't know if you are aware but when you register your baby as a couple the man's signature must go first on the bit where both parents sign the birth certificate. Dp had a big debate with the registrar who basically said if I signed it first therefore dps signature would be second on the line that they would have to rip up the certificate and start again! The man's signature must go first. Obviously if you register on your own it will be the woman, though if you are married and take wedding certificate to put husbands name on I think his name still then goes first!!

[cailindana]

Marriage is a tough one. It has horrendous connotations but as it stands it's the most effective way to ensure you're legally secure.

[AsAMan]

As OP promised no sarcasm or put downs I would really like to ask the regulars on here whether they understand what I am getting at and whether they ever feel that want to criticise something a woman has done, said etc. but hold back because of this "victim blaming" meme. And if so, is it helpful to hold back?

TO me Grimbletart the problem is that you're implying the woman has done something "wrong" by having a rude picture taken at all. And she hasn't. I'm not saying women can't be blamed for shit that they do, I absolutely think they can but I just don't see anything that doesn't hurt someone else as "wrong".

Ched Evan's girlfriend is a funny one. She's obviously the partner of a convicted rapist so we can safely assume her relationship is probably not a healthy one. You could maybe see her as you might see an abused woman who stays with a partner. Maybe not, maybe she's just fucking stupid. It's something I struggle with personally as I was badly abused by my father and so was my mother. By not leaving I got the crap kicked out of me. And I still blame her. I try not to, and I've discussed it here on FWR before but can't help my natural feeling

I think we all pretty much as a whole wanted to shake some sense in to Judy Finnegan though.

This is a case in point. You have someone who has met and been taught by several people who have been on X Factor as dancers, even people who are working on it this series, who have discussed the process of auditioning, being selected for and working on the show, and it seems a relatively unsexist process. Some of them are drop dead gorgeous, ... but you have just said "nope, it's sexist". I've seen your username before and consider you to be a reasonable poster who has opinions that I respect, and I don't take it personally, but I see how your response can be interpreted as dismissive and would put people off posting

As you've said you don't really watch the show,and the actual on screen portrayal of women is (to me) sexist, so I could just as easily say you are being dismissive of my personal view of sexism (I wouldn't because I expect we all have different ideas, but by your reasoning I could). I have to believe that the average poster on FWR is robust enough to accept people won't always agree with them.

[YonicScrewdriver]

Thanks for thread and excellent SAHM post, Cailin.

I've said it elsewhere and I'll say it here - I would be surprised if Ched Evans's girlfriend has not, at some point, been penetrated by a man when she did not have capacity to consent (through drink etc). This does not excuse her actions towards the victim, however.

[AsAMan]

Yonic, I do think there's a reason she has to feel that what he did wasn't rape.

Victoria Coren Mitchell on Have I got News For you Said. .. "Even if she believes his story, even if she believes he found a key and let himself in to a drunk woman's room where someone else was having sex and then jumped in" how bad were her previous partners that she's that as OK.

Thought it was a really good point!

[halfdrunkcoffee]

I'm an occasional lurker on this board; I tend to lurk a lot more than post in general as I can only really write posts of any length in the evening, if I have the energy!

My mum was very much into feminism when I was growing up and I suppose I saw it as her thing, whereas I was much more interested in the environment. I've taken more of an interest after having my own children. If I don't post, it's usually because someone more articulate has usually already said what I might have said, or because I don't feel I lack the knowledge to make an informative contribution.

[MoreCrackThanHarlem]

Hi all.
I have been on MN for 8 years and my interest in the feminism board has recently grown.
I have always been a feminist, but my awareness of casual sexism and gender stereotyping has been crystallised since I began educating myself in the last few years.
I think I was probably happier before. I find it quite exhausting atm as I find myself recognising casual sexism in people I had previously considered to be 'like me'.

The only time I have felt dismissed on the FWR board is when discussing fashion, make up and eyebrow shaping
I love fashion and beauty products. I really don't think this is at odds with my feminist beliefs though it appears to be a problem for some.

[cailindana]

Hi coffee, feel free to contribute whenever you want, even just to say "I agree."

From my point of view Harlem, there is absolutely nothing at all wrong or "anti-feminist" about being into fashion, beauty products, eyebrow shaping, whatever. The problem arises when posters claim that they make the choice to wear certain clothes or engage in certain beauty practices entirely of their own volition, without any input from the media, society, male expectations, etc, or when they say things like having hairy legs is disgusting, makes you unattractive etc.

Again, it's a matter of separating the practice from the theory. Shave your legs, who gives a shit, but don't claim you just came up with the idea entirely on your own and would shave your legs even if no one else in the world ever did it, because that's just bollocks.

[wasabipeanut]

Interesting thread! I've lurked for a good few months round here but always been too scared to post as I don't feel sufficiently informed. I've learned loads though. I've always been happy to state that I'm a feminist and why jo believe it's important to do so but lurking has really raised my awareness of the countless small ways that women are kept in their place and out of spheres of power and influence.

I challenge my nearest and dearest more than I ever did (and my arguments are so much better) but I feel frustrated about the lack of progress gene really. I have one daughter and two sons and for all of their sakes we need some change. Actually we need a lot of change.

[wasabipeanut]

Apologies for really random typos....

[wasabipeanut]

And Ros that post on breast feeding was amazing. I have nothing to add. You see this is why I lurk. I read and say "yep" and "damn right" to myself and then can't think of anything else to say. I'm often tired which doesn't help.