Lurkers ahoy! Friendly thread to dip your toe in the murky seas of feminism

[cailindana]

A thread specifically for those who feel a bit out of their depth.

Ask questions, make comments.

All queries taken seriously. No sarcasm, no putdowns.

[AsAMan]

I am very cross about the fact that the world discriminates against me due to my lack of willy. Surely being ranty is a very sensible response? I don't recall any social change movement in history being about nice chitchat and cups of tea?

1.) being ranty is considered unladylike so people don't like it. When men do it it as seen ans good and righteous or somesuch bullshit
2.) Social change can be helped by tea and nice biscuits, but I agree it's not all you need

squtternut buff will have said it better but basically some people come on these threads to say domestic violence isn't a "women's problem" and will insist we speak more about men's issues or pretend it is an equal problem. So they have thought that's what you were doing. It obviously does affect men, but as the problem is usually male violence it is always a feminist issue.

As for books you might like "Cinderella ate my daughter" it's feministy but also about how our children are affected by the current culture.

[AsAMan]

katee I think the problem with the xfactor dancers is that they are all dressed in a way as to be almost stage props? And quite often over sexualised stage propes. They are obviously hugely talented but it's all done in a way that doesn't put an emphasis on that (if that makes sense?) there is never a male equivalent either which makes it shitty. I've never seen Strictly but it might be better as it's a show about dancers. (or people learning to dance anyway!) Xfactor is really sexist in general I find though.

[Damsili]

Good thread Cailindana. Could be really useful and interesting.

[KateeGee]

Hi Buffy,

Yes, I see that totally in a way but I feel like if we look for the sexism in absolutely everything we drive ourselves crazy. The flipside of that is maybe there is sexism in absolutely everything, but we still end up crazy.

I don't see it as women's bodies being beautiful objects, I see it as a dancer's body being a beautiful object because of the way it is being used, but I maybe am biased because I love dance, I completely accept that that may be the case. But I don't think it's anything like podium girls in the Tour de France, or Page 3, or women in Lynx adverts - women in those situations are doing nothing but standing around looking beautiful. Female dancers are doing something, and I think being dismissive of their profession and saying their skill is entirely wiped out by the fact they are being objectified (that's what it felt like some people were saying on the other thread) feels a bit condescending -I doubt many professional dancers would see it that way. If I look at the pro women on Strictly, sometimes they wear nothing more than a bit of strategically placed ribbon, and it is eye-popping, I think they look amazing but then they start dancing and that's where the magic is. Sure they could do the dance in a more modest dress, but then they could also do it in leggings and a baggy t-shirt from Sainsbury's, but it wouldn't be as eye catching. The costumes in themselves are a work of art, but that's another issue. I feel like with dance it's an entire package - the dancer and the choreography are the meat, the costumes, lighting, makeup etc are what makes it special, and it should be fun.

Hi AskAMan, I see what you are saying, but I still don't think it's the case. I think it depends on what the viewer is looking for. It's like if I go to the cinema with my feminist hat on (I rue the day that I read about the Bechdel test on here...), I am looking for sexism and it ruins my enjoyment of what has been set up for entertainment - I don't think most people set out to make sexist films. If I go with my "I just want a couple of hours away from the world" hat on, I can still accept that a rom com is a load of shit but still enjoy myself. That doesn't mean I don't think we should combat casual sexism and objectification and stuff, but I do think sometimes the wrong and easy target is picked.

And I don't want to get all Diet Coke Ad, but there definitely are men dancing around in skimpy outfits. I've seen two girlbands on tour in the last 6 months (don't judge me ) and while all of them were gorgeous, their outfits weren't particularly shocking, and their male dancers were topless for a large part of each show and playing up their sex appeal. Obviously it is nowhere near as widespread, where there is an objectified man there are probably 100 objectified women, and that is a problem. And while we are all conditioned to think it is normal to see a woman dance in what is essentially lingerie, if a man does is in something equally skimpy it usually looks ridiculous - you'd only usually see this for something relatively avant-garde like Lady Gaga or Kylie, or for something totally camp and going for the pink pound, like It's Raining Men. That is also a problem, I get that. But the way some posters on the other thread made their point felt like an attack and a dismissal of female dancers, almost in a "bless, they don't even realise they are being exploited" kind of way. So I see why people get put off even bothering to discuss it.

[KateeGee]

And I don't think they can be fairly described as stage props - If they were just stood about flashing their boobs then yes, but if they are doing a very challenging routine I don't see how anyone can deny that the emphasis is on their talent. They are in the background but they are backing dancers, so that is to be expected.

Sorry, I didn't mean to rant on about dancers in this thread , it's just this illustrates to me how some people feel about debating on this board, I feel that some of the opinions that are put forward bother me but I can't quite articulate why, and then if I do try and don't get it quite right I just feel a bit silly and wrong. So I sit and read instead, nod along to the sage thoughts and just gloss over the ones that niggle at me slightly. Probably not the best way to go through life, but possibly the least exhausting.

[mrstiggy]

Hello everyone! I've been a lurker on here for a while, I've really enjoyed reading your opinions and have often composed replies in my head. I thought I'd join in on this one as I don't feel like I'm running the risk of providing a 'wrong' answer and getting shouted at. Hopefully posting on here will make me brave enough to venture out onto the board at some point.

[PenguinsIsSleepDeprived]

I am on my phone but will try to join in with longer posts over the weekend (I need a big proper keyboard as I touch type and my frustration overcomes me otherwise). Have thought a bit about breastfeeding and will add my 2p.

In the meantime, I liked The Equality Illusion as one of my first feminist reads.

I would also be interested to know how many women were tuned in to feminism by parenthood. A combination of the sudden workplace experiences, the sudden divergence of my day to daylife and DH during mat leave, the gender stereotyping and realising the sexualisation of the society my Dd's would grow up in really opened my eyes.

[cailindana]

I think you make a valid point about dancers katee. Dancing I think has always been a special case where the restriction on women were relaxed and they were allowed to express themselves and be sexual in a safe way. That said, dances like the tango, the paso doble, even the Viennese waltz play out and underline pernicious sexual stereotypes. Lovely as they are they subliminally and effectively underline the idea of woman as helpless ingenue or sexual conquest to be "tamed."

[AsAMan]

I can see what you mean and where you are coming from as a dancer, but the majority of people watching it won't be able to see it from that perspective because we aren't dancers. It's like pole dancing (let me finish!) whenever it gets discussed people talk about the raw skill involved (and no doubt there is) but you can't ignore the other stuff too.

I'm just talking about Xfactor because I watch it (well DH does, so I'm watching it by dafault) and it's horribly sexist and I don't believe the producers care about the dancers talent more than they see them as very carefully chosen eye candy. That's not me being dismissive or not seeing the talent I just disagree with why they were put there.

[AsAMan]

Penguins, I've always been a feminist although I wasn't super "out" about it. Having kids has turned me in to an out and proud radical feminist though

[KateeGee]

haha yes, I don't know what a feminist hat would look like. Some sort of beret, I hope.

It does make sense that you don't feel comfortable objectifying anyone's body, I understand that. But sometimes I think, heck, it's looking at a thing of beauty move in a beautiful way, is it so bad to enjoy it? I don't see it as any different to ballet (but I guess that has its own issues).


Yes I agree that society is misogynist. I've always considered myself to be a feminist from a young age (even if I didn't know the word, I still remember massively annoying teachers at primary school saying "why can't I do that just because I am a girl?"), and I do think it is important for people to engage with it in a way that is helpful and convenient to them. I am dismayed at people who "don't need", "don't support" or "don't agree with" feminism. But I don't think it's productive to question MN users who don't engage by posting here - maybe they only come to MN for certain things, maybe they aren't interested in discussing FGM or catcalling or whatever, I don't think that is wrong. I don't discuss things like rights for people with disabilities, even though I hope I am not at all disabalist and would absolutely support those who are motivated to fight for those rights.

Also, I don't think FWR regulars should be disheartened if there are lurkers who don't post for whatever reason - I am sure I am not the only person who has learned a lot, had a great deal of food for thought and will wave the feminist flag more enthusiastically as a result, even if you don't know the username.

It's interesting that you say resistance and facing things head on makes you feel better. I have pondered this a lot recently. I have become more vocal recently and people have noticed and commented on it, and I question if it does make me feel better. Sometimes people's comments are quite mocking and pejorative, so I wonder if it is worth the hassle. I am the one who is going to feel worse at the end of the day - they will forget it, but I will still feel rage hours, days or weeks later because it is something I feel passionate about. And that does me no favours. So while I see why some people feel better by tackling things, I see why others, for personal reasons, would prefer to stay out even if they are supportive of the issue. It isn't necessarily apathy, so I don't think people need to be too upset by lurkers who don't post - the fact they are lurking is a huge win in itself.

[PenguinsIsSleepDeprived]

Regarding films, I don't believe people set out to make sexist films as such, I agree with that. But so, so often male is just the default. It is a bit like how most of us will call an animal of unknown sex 'he'. Writing a character, it is male unless the scenario demands otherwise iyswim. If that wasn't happening there would be a lot more female lead characters. I can enjoy a given film, but I can't let go of that wider picture either. Also look at the new Ghostbusters for the vitriol one when tries to swim against thay.

Actually, about two years ago I decided, based on a recommendation from an old poster called Stewie, to read only books by women for six months. It was really eye opening. When I added male authors back in I had been really sensitised to how badly female charcters are often utilised and drawn.

[cailindana]

Q -hi! I would recommend Dworkin.
All of her works are available for free download here

Dworkin is sometimes dismissed as being too extreme but I find her no-holds-barred intelligent and historical assessment of misogyny mindblowing. She writes in a very easy to read style, too, so it's not too chewy. I think while some writers tend to skate along the surface, Dworkin really gets into the deep down causes for different aspects of misogyny and it is very enlightening

[cailindana]

Hi Apocalypse, Mardy, Smudged.

Smudged if you would like to post a thread about past relationships, to talk about the things that are getting to you about them, please do, it can be extremely cathartic and validating to have women understand what you're talking about and why you feel so bad.

[cailindana]

Buffy please feel free to be on the "panel" :) Nice to see you //flowers

[cailindana]

Oops

[cailindana]

Hi Crumple, hope to hear more from you :)

Unwitting: "I have a question. On "that thread" the problem of FWR being ranty kept coming up.

I am very cross about the fact that the world discriminates against me due to my lack of willy. Surely being ranty is a very sensible response? I don't recall any social change movement in history being about nice chitchat and cups of tea?

It feels like the accusations I get at work about being "too emotional" when actually I just give a shit and am passionate about something.

Do we have to be "nice"?"

Some others have addressed your question and I agree with what they say. Also, I think, when women first encounter feminism many feel a sense of vertigo, like the world they once knew and trusted is falling away. It can be incredibly scary to think that the people around you who professed to have your best interests at heart, even those who love you, could deep down see you as inferior and be colluding in certain ways to ensure your success and stability are so much harder to maintain than that of men. Challenging a person's world view, making them feel unsure of everything, definitely comes across as an attack and I can understand the defensiveness many women feel - the sense that it's all too much and can we just hide away from it a bit?

But, to answer your question, no, we don't have to be "nice."

[cailindana]

Gimme - breastfeeding is quite a controversial issue as far as feminism is concerned. There is no denying that bfing is best for baby in nutritional terms but there is a feminist argument that pushing it and guilting mothers into it when they don't want to is another way to oppress women by tying them to their babies and ensuring that men get off scott free from the responsibility of feeding their newborn children.

I'm conflicted about it. I bfed two children and found it a massive chore but I'm also glad I did it. I do agree that women shouldn't be pushed into it, and that partners essentially should have no say in the matter as it's not their body doing the work, but I am in favour at the same time of bfing being promoted and supported in a comprehensive and useful way. I emphasise the supported aspect because in my experience at the moment bfing is pushed on women without any real support being offered. As such, it is simply a stick to beat women with and so in terms of how bfing is handled by the NHS currently it is a massive feminist issue. Basically it's beyond fucking ridiculous to bang on on and on and on and on about bfing only to tell a struggling new mum that no help is available to her when she can't get bfing going. I had some horrendous NHS experiences around bfing when my DD was little (related to having a biopsy, I'll tell the full story if you're interested) and I complained. I got one good response and the rest was the usual defensive bullshit but I think it made some small difference.

[cailindana]

Down: "It's when the polemic is directed, or perceived to be directed at an individual rather than the system that many become defensive and aggressive in return. If women think they are being attacked and accused on a board, why would they continue to post there? Even if they were mistaken in how they felt and the ranty poster had no idea of how they were being received?"

This is an intractable problem in the discussion of feminism. If you say to a poster that her choice to shave, for example, has been informed by the society around her, you are stating a fact that has a lot of independent proof. Yet she, understandably, might feel you are calling her a sheep or implying that she has no mind of her own. This goes back to the whole separating the personal from the political while still understanding how they are intertwined. It's hard, and it takes time, and if a poster isn't up for that then that's ok. But feminists aren't going to change their views to make someone feel better. It gets frustrating constantly revisiting the same arguments over and over. Which is why I think this thread might be helpful - it can cover the ground that new posters need and hopefully help them feel confident in approaching other threads.

[ballsballsballs]

Hello all!

KateeGee I know what you mean about the cinema. I went to see Inbetweeners 2 this week and it was seriously sexist. And I laughed my head off.

I often think of this article when watching films:

www.theonion.com/articles/woman-takes-short-halfhour-break-from-being-femini,35026/

[grimbletart]

I've been a feminist since childhood (the 1950s!) and I have still learned an awful lot from FWR - so ta everyone. And thank you Betty Frieden, Simone de Beauvoir et al.

I am not an academic feminist, just a get on and do it feminist, so to read what people who have actually done serious gender studies have to say is super interesting.

I mostly lurk, but do post when I feel ranty enough. However, I feel I am sometimes at odds with the prevailing opinion here in that I occasionally want to criticise women for some of things they do. And I am scared to do so because I believe (possibly wrongly) that any hint of criticism of women is immediately tagged "victim blaming". One example was on the revenge porn thread where I felt I had to tippy toe around the fact that I wanted to urge women not to do digital naked stuff, mainly because (as an ex media person) I know that once digitised you can never be sure where it will end up and you lose all autonomy, but also because even apparently nice blokes can go rogue.

I do feel that sometimes women can behave really badly just as men do and, while I totally accept socialisation, cultural forces etc. are incredibly powerful, I feel we are not special snowflakes who should be immune from criticism. I personally don't want a get out of jail free card because I am female - that only emphasises the stereotype that we are somehow weaker or to be protected.

Not putting this very well am I?……...

As OP promised no sarcasm or put downs I would really like to ask the regulars on here whether they understand what I am getting at and whether they ever feel that want to criticise something a woman has done, said etc. but hold back because of this "victim blaming" meme. And if so, is it helpful to hold back?

Sorry for rambling.