Lurkers ahoy! Friendly thread to dip your toe in the murky seas of feminism

[cailindana]

A thread specifically for those who feel a bit out of their depth.

Ask questions, make comments.

All queries taken seriously. No sarcasm, no putdowns.

Just wandering in to add my support for this thread and a random thought.

I often find I can't articulate things well and whilst I know something feels off about how I'm or another woman is being treated I can't say it well enough to get past the "can't you take a joke" type comments. FWR is helping me put things into words far better.

Wrt bfing I found at great institute that the specialists, people sho had supposedly studied breasts for years, were concerned about 2 things - cancer and appearance. These supposed experts knew literally nothing about bfing - the ignorance inherent in the things they said astounded me. Essentially breasts have so much become a focus for men that their basic function has become entirely secondary to simply preserving their appearance - either by detecting cancer or enhancing them through cosmetic surgery.

at the breast institute

Thank you! Another lurker here.

The primer on trans, terfs, cis et al was very useful. The basis of the arguement appears to be based on "I am more female than you". It comes across as very tribal. I would say willy waving but, I am not sure that is appropriate.

Callin - your post on how society values parenting is fantastic. It is an inequality that needs highlighting, caring for children is an unselfish act - in any other field this is a quality that would be admired, yet a parent who makes the sacrifice and takes the financial risk is maligned and sidelined.

Hi weasel - what you've identified there is a massive feminist issue, the way in which women are denied a voice. We are oppressed and disadvantaged but when we try to speak up about it we find we don't have words for it, or we're told we haven't argued it "correctly" (keep an eye out for the "women, you're doing feminism wrong" posts we regularly get from men!), or we're told we "can't take a joke." Overcoming oppression is nigh on impossible if you're prevented from even talking about it.

Ah yes, I especially like it when feminists are told they aren't arguing "nicely" enough, or are "too angry". It's all ways to stop us speaking out.

Because by arguing our corner we are not conforming to how we are "supposed" to put up and shut up behave.

I had a spirited debate at uni about a feminist text which another student felt was too angry and unpleasant. I may have had a mini rant about how women are expected to play nicely and not be angry, and how we had a right to be angry and speak our truth.

As an aside I was walking through the village today and walked past a woman and two men

They were in front of a stand of religious leaflets...Mormon or Jehovah and I distinctly heard the woman say

"It's because they don't keep their wives in check"

When I started walking back my husband caught up with me and I had a mini rant and he said "well what were they talking about"

Well I hadn't heard the whole (loud) conversation but as I said to DH in what context would that sentence ever be right? (He couldn't think of any)

Possibly should have said something to them at the time but I was a bit gobsmacked

Just caught up on this thread, it's fascinating. I will definitely try some Dworkin once I've finished reading Delusions of Gender (possibly after a little break, because I suspect my increasingly frequent remarks about feminism may be scaring my DP a bit).

I'm not a mother, but the comments about breastfeeding and SAHMs are extremely enlightening.

Someone also posted upthread about spending time and money on clothes, make-up etc. I've been thinking about this quite a bit recently. We were on holiday a couple of weeks ago and DP said something like, "Right then, shall we head out in 20 minutes?" and I was like, "20 minutes, are you crazy? You KNOW it takes me an hour to get ready." And it does. Not every day, but when I blowdry my hair, put on make-up etc, that's about how long it takes. Hours and hours of my life.

And money too - it would be interesting to know what percentage of their disposable income women spend on fashion and beauty stuff. Of course men do too - but I have the sense that it's only the men who are seriously high earners who'd consider buying designer stuff, whereas women save up for it, go into debt for it, etc. That must be hugely disadvantaging for us economically.

And yet because we're valued (and value ourselves) on the basis of looks first and foremost, it's not possible to opt out without disadvantaging oneself socially. So we're between a rock and a hard place.

Marking place because this is a really interesting thread. But totally agree with the nhs breastfeeding 'support' which primarily seems to consult of printing posters. Cailin I had the same thing about babies crying - it would make me feel sick with fear.

Also worked with someone who was forbidden to drink alcohol throughout her pregnancies by her husband and he insisited she ebf their children as it would make them more intelligent. She was a bright, professional woman but I was shocked at her acceptance of his rules.

Glad to see so many lurkers joining in. If there is any issue anyone wants to talk about or any aspect of feminism you don't agree with/understand, feel free to bring it up.

Cailindana, sorry not been on to reply. Thanks for explaining your thoughts on breastfeeding, as I've found it a difficult topic to process.

As a bf peer supporter, I'd agree that the "support" is very hit and miss.

The centre I volunteer at is run by 2 experts, who are very strong, confident women. They often have to tell some mothers that bf is not the best for them or their babies as their circumstances are stacked against them.

My role as a supporter is more of a listening role. I can't believe how many women feel bullied into their feeding method. They are often told at pre natal classes the statistics for bf, have goals set up in their minds and then it all goes pear shaped for them.

My other concern is how many mums arrive at the drop in clinic full of despair and at the point of collapse. How has it come to this?

I'm only there as an unpaid volunteer, so I'm pretty vocal with what I consider feedback. Luckily it's all taken on board.

Cailin - reposting from another thread, with another question from the other thread tagged on, I hope that's ok.

Are we not supposed to answer on the thread in here? Honestly, I thought the deal on MN was that you were supposed to take it up with the poster, on the thread in question.

Doesn't that apply in here? If not, why not? And don't you think that should be a sticky if it is indeed the case - so that newbies to FWR, like me, don't make a mistake and behave in this part of MN like we do on all the other sections? If there's some sort of unwritten rule of FWR that I've broken, then I'm sorry, but I didn't know (because it is unwritten).

Also, given that I don't agree that every single aspect of my life is every single aspect of my life is constrained, criticised, belittled, devalued and threatened. I wonder if you would mind explaining?

sorry - should read

given that I don't agree that as a woman every single aspect....

There's a mixture of issues wrt bfing. Firstly, women are patronised by posters that imply "good mothers" breastfeed. As childrearing is the one arena that women feel they can have ownership of their achievements and women are brought up to be "good girls" this message plays massively on women's self esteem. The sense of failure women feel from not being able to bf is massive. Adding tk that is the idea that once women are mothers they need to just get on with it. Men are tired, they need help, bless them, they feel left out and are only rubbish parents because they need time and find babies boring. They need space to "learn" how to be a dad, while carrying on with their pre-children life and getting a full night's sleep. They're dads even if they never change a nappy or do a night feed. Women on the other hand - they're automatically mums. Mums do everything without complaint, don't need sleep and never get ill. Nappy changing, feeding, constant caring, that all just happens when a mum is around, no effort required, essentially she's doing nothing. Why would she need support?

You've not broken any rules Frau, don't worry.

My response to your question on the other thread was: are there arenas of life where you think women have the same freedom, rights and respect as men?

Not all women, no. But me, yes. I do defend and support women who don't have the same freedoms as me.

But I believe that for me, I have the same freedoms, rights and respect as men. Maybe I am extraordinary lucky, or maybe I'm not noticing where I am not.

In the past, certainly I didn't, but I took steps to get myself out of the situations that were unequal and now, I wouldn't tolerate not being equal.

And thanks for answering.

WRT to BF, well I BF 2 of mine and didn't BF one. In terms of who did most at the time it made no difference - my (now ex) husband still did bugger all of the day to day child care. Which was a husband problem, not a BF problem.

It's great that feel that way Frau. I think in that case feminism might be exasperating or feel a bit over the top for you.

It's great that you feel that way.

This debate doesn't seem to happen wrt gay men so far as I've seen.

No, and heterosexual men whose wives decide they are men are not supposed to say they are gay now. Only women are supposed to accept this.

While I agree with Tiggy that this is a very small amount of people (as he always reminds us). What he forgets to say is that this is a very vocal minority who actually get feminists no platformed and events cancelled. This very vocal minority also make violent threats. They also use rapey fucking terms like cloth ceiling.

I will continue to discuss it as long as events I want to go to are not giving out maps or addresses till the day before due to the threat of trans activists.

MRA and anti abortion activists are also a very small minority. Are we allowed to discuss them?

I agree AsAMan, I've seen some wonderful people get death threats and campaigns against them speaking, even on unrelated subjects! So definitely not a small deal.

"They also use rapey fucking terms like cloth ceiling."

I haven't been entirely sure about this one, but that's their term for lesbians refusing to accept them as sexual partners isn't it? More than slightly messed up given that the glass ceiling is something we are meant to "break through", unless they are saying that the cloth part refers to something other than lesbian's underwear?

When I say I'm not sure, I just can't/don't want to believe that anyone could think that it's a positive thing to refer to a woman's underwear as something to "break through"

Even if you are completely charitable and see it as just the "last barrier" that you aren't allowed to go through and don't see it something to 'break through'.. it's the idea that a woman is being offensive by ever not agreeing to fuck someone one she does not want to fuck.

I do think that a group like TA that spend so much time being aware of terminology and questioning it (which is not a bad thing in itself) would be aware of the issues with cloth ceiling and the references to "breaking through it" though.