Lurkers ahoy! Friendly thread to dip your toe in the murky seas of feminism

[cailindana]

A thread specifically for those who feel a bit out of their depth.

Ask questions, make comments.

All queries taken seriously. No sarcasm, no putdowns.

Dueling - DH and I are going through a major upheaval at the moment wrt all that. I was very close to leaving and it finally woke him up (I think). He's changed a massive amount, but I'm still wary. He's read some feminist literature and that's really opened his eyes, so I'm thinking the change is quite profound rather than just something he's doing to please me. Time will tell.

"Because DR's appointments, present buying, party planning, meal making and so on are 'women's work'.
Not if you choose not to define them as such."

I'm not sure if I'm reading you right, Down, but is it your opinion that in order to combat stereotypes, pressure etc women (and men) just need to choose not to be affected by them?

Well, that's how many of us started years back, by asking why something was how it was and then challenging it as individuals, in our own lives and relationships. Not just with friends, but with family.
Simplistic and very small-scale, but cumulative.

I agree that there's something to be said for challenging things in your own life, but what happens when your partner doesn't agree? What if you say to your partner, you're responsible for birthdays from now on, and he just ignores you?

Oh, and no, I don't think that it's the only way, but back in the 60s and 70s it was a lot harder to engage with like-minded people and campaign in the way that we can now. So you acted within your sphere of influence, as students and later in the workplace.

I agree Down, but what do you say to women who aren't listened to, by partners, by bosses? Women who strive and fight every day for recognition and are exhausted by it?

cailindana: thanks for your response. I totally agree with your view that it is the man to blame on the revenge porn thingy and a woman is entitled to do what she wants over images. I was more worried that women(and men) are simply not aware that once these photos are digitised they lose control over them irrespective of her partner - and as a feminist I am shit hot on a woman's autonomy.

Anyway I am still interested in the views of regulars over whether feminists should ever feel they can criticise women. Doesn't seem to be a view on that so far…...

Another lurker here

I think I felt more of a feminist when a student, and then I thought I had maintained that when I started working etc. However, like a previous poster, when I had my first DD and then my second DD, I realised that I had been overlooking or not properly considering the cumulative impact of low level sexism and how pervasive it is. Maybe my heightened awareness of it now has also come from the new factor of social media. I am so conscious of (and worried about) the additional stuff like FB / WhatsApp etc that my girls will have to deal with and navigate through, compared with my teenage years.

Our children will all have to have the strength and awareness to maintain their self worth and self esteem in the face of anonymous (or not), negative and sometimes malicious internet influences. Hmmm I really haven't expressed that well but hopefully you get the general gist.

This thread is brilliant thank you. I have downloaded a couple of the books recommended above. One book that I studied as part of my degree (many many moons ago...) was Eve Was Framed by Helena Kennedy, which was an eye opening read for my 19 year old self. I must re-read it, seeing as I bought it several months ago and it still sitting untouched in the bookcase!

I'm not dodging the question, I just want to clarify what you mean by "criticising women." If a woman does something wrong, like stealing, lying, cheating, hurting others, whatever, I do have critical thoughts about her, the same as I would about a man. Certain actions are never justified, barring situations where something is done in self defence or to ensure survival. It's not the case, from my point of view, that women are always right. I'm aware though that I'm not really addressing your question. Could you give a specific example?

Hi patient :)

I agree that fb etc have a negative influence, but I honestly think that the internet and sites like MN in particular will have a massively positive effect on feminism. The opportunity for women to come together and openly discuss their views and feelings without men curtailing, criticising, belittling etc is unprecedented and will have far reaching effects IMO.

What do I say?
There are women striving all over the world in situations that would break me, I've encountered attitudes towards women and girls in my job that have astounded me and that have helped me not despair of feminism in this country. Not perfect yet, but so much better than the majority of life for women in many other countries.
Hard to put it across on a board, but sometimes the most useful thing is to be supportive and let them know that their wishes are not stupid or unrealistic or wrong. That they are entitled to equality in their relationships and that it shouldn't be a fight, they should expect it.
Like me not putting up with sexist behaviour and attitudes in class with children.
To have those conversations with men, and push them to use logic in their reasoning rather than them saying 'it's just weird' 'unnatural' amnd the like
Living a feminist life according to my definition of it, and raising my own children with high expectations of their rights.
But then women that stay with arseholes, that put up with infantile lazy and bullying behaviour from a partner tend to sadden and confuse me, so I'm not much practical help I suppose. It's why I have the relationships board hidden.

What are the reasons for women staying with arseholish men do you think Down?

cailindana: it's always difficult to isolate an example when you want one: most of it is a general feeling that it's not the done thing to criticise a woman. But, for example, on all the views we had about the ghastly Ched Evans case I was waiting for someone to come and say what a total shit his girlfriend was and utterly condemn her. A woman in her twenties, so old enough to know what's what, who proceeded to undermine Evan's victim (no sisterly solidarity there then) through the website and by sticking with this knob etc. I wanted to say just that, but didn't because I could visualise the comments it might receive about "societal influences" that she would be under. A woman like that lets down all women.

I see what you mean grimble. And I do think Ched Evans' girlfriend is an idiot. However, I don't think she "lets down all women" because I think the idea that one woman is an example for all womanhood is a pernicious and prevalent aspect of patriarchy. If I said anywhere that Ched has let down all men I'd be torn to shreds - men are seen as individuals, responsible for their own behaviour, while women are seen as examples, and one woman's misdemeanours are seen as reflecting on the entire gender.

I think it is worthwhile from a feminist point of view to examine why a woman would stay with a convicted rapist, and not only that but support him publicly. That certainly, in my mind, doesn't relieve her of responsibility, but there are pertinent questions to be asked around why women don't value themselves enough to tell a piece of shit like Evans to go and suck his own dick.

Brilliant thread!

I have agonised a lot about breastfeeding, from a feminist perspective. Not about doing it, which I did, and do not regret, but around the issues around it.

• of course it must be entirely up to the woman whose breasts they are

• but this means you are pushing the agenda that the mother is the main parent, and this goes against all the responsibility that you want the father to take, now and in the long term. In some tiny way it's as if saying "only I feed the baby" turns into "only I know what (s)he eats, how to get her to sleep, and in 12 years will be having arguments about homework and video games that you can't be arsed to have"

• as other posters have pointed out, it's not like there aren't a million other things that fathers could do. If you're living in a house that contains a baby and 2 adults, an adult who isn't pulling his weight because he can't feed the baby and seriously can't think of another thing to do, needs a kick up the arse

• and missing all these things points to the unfamiliarity of the situation to men, finding themselves in the supporting role, as if doing the side dishes at the barbecue. They haven't even seen the side dishes before. Making a huge thing of bf-ing - whether pro or anti - is about feeding the baby being the absolute sine qua non (seriously, the only thing you can't forget to do for your baby is feed it) and therefore men feeling this weirdness that the starring role isn't for them. Therefore they place huge emphasis on it (baby crying "must be hungry" Fuck OFF have you tried ANYTHING else she came off the breast THREE minutes ago!) - or even, the really stupid ones, resent it.

• At the same time! - it is incredibly tying and draining. It really changes your life beyond anything, to be physically tied for another human being 24 hours a day for 6 - 9 months to the extent that you can't be away for them for more than a couple of hours. It is actually slightly dementing... and the sleep deprivation.... and so although I actually think there is plenty of room in a family of a bf baby for the man to step up and be a father, I also think that a lot of this stepping up needs to be focused on the mother. Not only the neutral stuff - the house, the laundry, the meals - though that's all good. But actually on her. He owes her some energy that she is missing and will never get back. I say this now with great clarity, not because it happened to me, but becuase it didn't.

• and the bit I struggle with, from a feminist perspective, is that I feel torn between this sense of a mother's precious but exhausting bf-ing bond which should not be fucked with and almost translates to some sort of sanctity of motherhood (in the sense that the bf-ing mother should be looked after and protected beyond just a sort of esteemed colleague - she is more than that - she gives of her very flesh and bloody every day in a way you will never know or have to bear, while cheerfully pushing toddlers on swings at the same time); and the sense that the sanctity of motherhood is traditionally a patriarchal con, perpetrated to make drudgery in the house look good

Sorry that was so long. It's only part of what I have in my head!

can't see any easy answers to that one though

Wow great post ros.

Ahem, to actually address your post, ros (which moved me), I totally agree with the idea of men struggling with not having a starring role, and with the man owing the bfing woman the energy she is expending. This is actually a massive part of the process DH and I are going through at the moment. And he is getting it, much to my shock. I am not bfing DD any more but I bfed her for 18 loooong months and my DH has said that I now need to take it easy and recoup he energy I have lost in doing that. I think he gets it.

Wow cailin, that is great.
I stopped bfing a couple of years ago (after doing it for about 3 years, but they were different dcs) and I still feel tired from it. I went back to work with b-fed babies, both times, for a while I was pregnant, bf-ing and working, and it really all sort of piled up back there and I don't think I can really talk about that now as it is 2 years ago that I stopped so I should be over all that, but... I don't feel over it. I wouldn't admit this in real life

I get it ros. What I explained to DH is that for 18 months I simply didn't have a break, well, at least not one that counted for anything. My body was physically sustaining another person, and on top of that I was looking after another little person (my DS) and working (albeit very part time), getting very little sleep and the exhaustion was immense. I think experiencing that level of relentlessness is akin to torture and it does create some psychological damage - I struggle sometimes now to engage with the world as I feel unable to cope with demands.

Also, when I hear a small baby crying I literally break out in a sweat. DD was a particularly tough baby - cried a lot, didn't sleep, fed constantly - and I think I have something like PTSD from the whole thing. I soldiered on, and my DH was not supportive, but when I look back I honestly don't know how I did it. I find thinking about it quite upsetting and traumatic.

'What are the reasons for women staying with arseholish men do you think Down?'

I think every unhappy woman in a dysfunctional relationship has her own reasons for not wanting or being able to leave. Cultural, financial, self worth, dependency, fear of being without a man, conviction that she can change things if she loves him enough...a million different combinations for sadness.

Lurker and occasional poster marking place. Am going to add some of the suggested reads to my Xmas list.

Am another poster who feels slightly out of my depth intellectually on these threads at times, I think it's partly a self confidence issue for me which is odd as I come across as a confident/outgoing person in rl and I am generally.

My question/wondering would be about the sahm/wahm issue. I personally don't care what people do as long as it works for them and their families. I think it is or should be down to each family to decide what works for them... But obviously society, economic situation etc affects all these 'choices' and many women don't have a choice.

I myself have/am a sahm and it's a role that I love, that exhausts me at times and I am ref feeling ready/excited/nervous of doing something new as the madthings get older. But I have a niggling feeling/worry that being a sahm is seen as letting the side down, not feminist etc. I guess like some industries it's the wider impact of your role, the message it sends? Sorry an waffling and being distracted by small people.

I think you are describing the experience of feeding and mothering a baby very evocatively. 'Relentless' being particularly fitting.

agree that fb etc have a negative influence, but I honestly think that the internet and sites like MN in particular will have a massively positive effect on feminism. The opportunity for women to come together and openly discuss their views and feelings without men curtailing, criticising, belittling etc is unprecedented and will have far reaching effects IMO.

Thanks very much for this thought cailindana, it's a much more positive way to view it, and gives me a bit of peace and perspective. I had been a bit glass half empty (or completely empty!) about it, but you are right that social media can be positive as well. This thread being one such example.

cailindana: actually I do happen to think that in a high profile like this Evan's girlfriend lets down all women by her total lack of self respect.
And likewise I think Evans lets down all men by being a complete and utter knob.

When I read about a woman like that I feel embarrassed to be female and my DH actually said to me that when he read about Evans he felt embarrassed to be male.

"No men is an island" etc etc (no woman either).

I'm an equal opportunities ranty blamer me!