Lurkers ahoy! Friendly thread to dip your toe in the murky seas of feminism

[cailindana]

A thread specifically for those who feel a bit out of their depth.

Ask questions, make comments.

All queries taken seriously. No sarcasm, no putdowns.

Hermit -do feel free to join in, I for one love hearing a new voice.

Just popping on to say hi

'If women always seek to avoid confrontation, to always be "safe", we may never experience any revolutionary change, any transformation, individually or collectively.'

Well said prettygirl.

Hiya Rufus.

Maki and Amethyst, I would recommend Dworkin to you too. Download here.

Squtter, I hope Buffy addressed your points? I agree with what she's saying BTW, and I was wondering what you think?

Hi AsAMan

Xfactor b... it's horribly sexist and I don't believe the producers care about the dancers talent more than they see them as very carefully chosen eye candy. That's not me being dismissive or not seeing the talent I just disagree with why they were put there.

This is a case in point. You have someone who has met and been taught by several people who have been on X Factor as dancers, even people who are working on it this series, who have discussed the process of auditioning, being selected for and working on the show, and it seems a relatively unsexist process. Some of them are drop dead gorgeous, but some are just run of the mill people who are only eye candy because they've been through hair and make-up, I could probably look as good with the same work and I am no oil painting. But you have just said "nope, it's sexist". I've seen your username before and consider you to be a reasonable poster who has opinions that I respect, and I don't take it personally, but I see how your response can be interpreted as dismissive and would put people off posting - this is certainly how I felt earlier in the week when I saw similar responses from other posters on the thread in question. It almost feels like if someone tries to provide an alternative view by saying "I think you are wrong because...", very occasionally it feels like they are shouted down by "nope, you're wrong. Patriarchy". So you can think, well, why bother.

Pole dancing ones always makes me feel conflicted. Yes it has horrible origins but if someone wants to climb a pole who am I to judge? Also ones about pubic hair removal. Whatever anyone does with their fanny is their own business as far as I am concerned, if I remove my hair but no one ever sees it is that a problem? If I hardly ever do it but one day decide to shave off all my pubes just because I feel like it but still no one is ever going to know, is that still the fault of the patriarchy? Even if it is, who cares? Is shaving my armpits as bad? I actually epilate them so I suppose that is worse? I have conflicting feelings about all of these things so I don't think either side is entirely right or wrong. But there was a thread a short while ago where someone said they liked the way it feels, they feel less sweaty if they remove their hair (I can't remember if it was pubes, armpits or what), and rather than accept that some people posted a ridiculous extrapolation about shaving their head to avoid sweating from exercise rather than washing their hair. It felt a bit sneery and superior to read it, it kind of felt the same as when I try to argue a feminist viewpoint with a non-feminist and they just make a joke out of what I say. It makes me feel small and stupid so I would rather not engage.

Penguins: "I would also be interested to know how many women were tuned in to feminism by parenthood. A combination of the sudden workplace experiences, the sudden divergence of my day to daylife and DH during mat leave, the gender stereotyping and realising the sexualisation of the society my Dd's would grow up in really opened my eyes."

Yup. I was always into feminism in a vague sort of way, then got into it more when I joined MN but since having DD, in particular (I also have an older DS) I have become passionate about it, partly because I see the inequalities in parenthood (and my own marriage has almost floundered on these rocks) and I worry so much about the world DD will face.

"there is a feminist argument that pushing it and guilting mothers into it when they don't want to is another way to oppress women by tying them to their babies and ensuring that men get off scott free from the responsibility of feeding their newborn children."

hmmmm.... as a woman who has been breastfeeding for 4 years I find the idea that women are pushed and guilt-tripped a bit hard to agree with. Pointing out the fact that breast-milk is the healthiest and most convenient option for a baby is not pushing or guilt-tripping. The act of imparting this information doesn't force a woman to do anything she doesn't want to.

Women are already tied to their babies, even without breast milk, at least for the first weeks and months.

there is of course a wider issue to do with men being expected to do less RE childcare but I think focusing on breastfeeding means you are missing the point. Why pick on breastfeeding when there is so much more surrounding childcare that could be changed.

yes ballsballsballs, mine was 22 Jump Street. Very dubious in terms of feminist credentials, but man it was funny.

my pont being that parents are tied to their babies from the moment they are born, but for many reasons Men are mostly less tied to them and this goes beyond just the method of feeding.

Even bottle feeding mums feel more tied to their children than most men do.

Grimble, I get what you're saying and I think we've clashed a bit on this point in other threads.

The way I see it, it's not about bad/good/right/wrong or criticism. Both women and men are human, they make mistakes. Women are not perfect beings who can never been called to account for their actions.

But, take the digital images thing. A woman has a body. She likes that body and enjoys having it photographed. So she allows a male partner to photograph her, she gets a kick out of it, all good. Then, later, that guy decides for whatever reason to plaster those photos all over the internet. Or, worse still, someone decides to hack into her computer and steal the photos and plaster them on the internet.

What should happen in this situation is people say "What a shit that guy is for stealing/breaking his ex partner's trust." Because that woman was perfectly entitled to take and have photos of anything belonging to her, including her body, it was the man who did wrong by exploiting them. Yet, the man gets very little criticism, instead we have people saying "she shouldn't have had the photos taken." To me, all that says is that 1) women aren't allowed to revel in their sexuality and have photos taken, they will be seen as silly and be made to feel ashamed for photographing their most prized possession - their body - why? What's wrong with a woman's body? 2) Why are women to blame for men's actions?

Dueling: "there is a feminist argument that pushing it and guilting mothers into it when they don't want to is another way to oppress women by tying them to their babies and ensuring that men get off scott free from the responsibility of feeding their newborn children."

hmmmm.... as a woman who has been breastfeeding for 4 years I find the idea that women are pushed and guilt-tripped a bit hard to agree with. Pointing out the fact that breast-milk is the healthiest and most convenient option for a baby is not pushing or guilt-tripping. The act of imparting this information doesn't force a woman to do anything she doesn't want to."

I agree that imparting the information does not equal pressure. However, MWs, at least in some trusts, are required to ask multiple times about how a baby will be fed, which is a form of pressure. It's a complicated issue, because I am all in favour of bfing, I think it's a marvellous thing, and I did it myself for two and half years. However, I think the support out there for bfing mothers, especially new mothers, is appalling, and given that's the case then the breastfeeding posters etc are just propaganda with nothing to back them up.

Sorry Dueling I missed bit

"there is of course a wider issue to do with men being expected to do less RE childcare but I think focusing on breastfeeding means you are missing the point. Why pick on breastfeeding when there is so much more surrounding childcare that could be changed.
my pont being that parents are tied to their babies from the moment they are born, but for many reasons Men are mostly less tied to them and this goes beyond just the method of feeding.

Even bottle feeding mums feel more tied to their children than most men do."

I'm not picking on breastfeeding, a poster asked about it so I answered.

You say "for many reasons men are mostly less tied" to babies - I'd be interested to hear what those reasons are?

Grimble - something I'm getting at is, do you think there's something inherently bad or wrong about a woman having photos of her own naked body?

"You say "for many reasons men are mostly less tied" to babies - I'd be interested to hear what those reasons are?"

well...

Because they are allowed to be, not just by society but by women themselves (though this isn't their fault IMO - it's the 'way things are').

Because even now, with new maternity/paternity splits working life is not set up to allow men to do equal parenting.

Because men who do childcare are looked down upon, even the childcare of their own children.

Because DR's appointments, present buying, party planning, meal making and so on are 'women's work'.

As I said in the other thread, I am often unwilling to post in the feminist threads because I feel like I am not as articulate as others but I do know that women get to do all the wife work and that includes looking after babies and children. Men have a get out clause which is purely based upon them being men in the first place and this is really ingrained in our culture/society etc.

I agree with you entirely on that point.

I think you're articulate - I've seen a lot of your posts and would consider you a poster to listen to.

Because it's acceptable to say things like 'oh he's a typical bloke' or to let men get away with 'just not seeing what needs to be done' or men get away with saying 'you just need to tell me and then I will do it'.

Why are so many men incapable of doing even the most basic childcare/house care stuff? The answer is - they aren't incapable at all they are just used to being allowed to get away with it and then accusing the women in their lives of nagging and going on if they ask for help.

Basically i think there are many women who subscribe to the 'if you want it done right then just do it yourself' because where kids are involved there's no time to fanny about trying to get 50% of the population to pull their weight.

Indeed.

On the bfing side of things though, while it is a smaller issue in the whole morass of childcare shenanigans, I do think the lack of support out there is appalling.

I had to attend the breast institute, a national centre of excellence in breasty-stuff, when I was bfing DD, in order to have a biopsy. The lack of knowledge about bfing, from a so-called centre of excellence was jaw-droppingly awful. It was genuinely as if the staff didn't understand what breasts were actually for.

Hi I'm Righty and I lurk a lot on here but don't post because I am not very eloquent at the moment and lots of people express what I feel in a more measured manner, with better words and in a nicer tone than I think I can manage!

Haven't had time to RTFT yet but will jump in later when I can.

Thanks for starting this thread

Hi Righty, do join in whenever you feel able :)

I agree, more than 29 years ago, OH was a SAHP for our children even when they were babies. Much to many women's horror and the bemusement of many men.
Had he been a different sort of person, it might have caused him embarassment, isolation and loneliness, but he's very self-sufficient.

Because they are allowed to be, not just by society but by women themselves (though this isn't their fault IMO - it's the 'way things are').
or forced to be, even if they wanted to do things differently to the way that it's always been for the majority.

Because men who do childcare are looked down upon, even the childcare of their own children.
because stepping out of the stereotype takes courage and strength, and patience to deal with the patronising responses, suspicion and stupidity that is part of so many encounters. With women as well as men.

Because DR's appointments, present buying, party planning, meal making and so on are 'women's work'.
Not if you choose not to define them as such.

thank you

sorry to go on but one of the more shocking things to happen to me since I became a parent was my own mother, who I thought was as feminist, telling me that maybe I was 'just being a bit too pc' when I complained about needing more help from DH with childcare etc. She advised me to just get on with it and that if having stuff done was going to make me happier then I should just do it myself.

I do understand that she was trying to help me get out of a situation where I was winding myself up over having so little help but I was really shocked that the only way out of the circular arguments me and my husband were having was to do it all myself - i.e just let him off the hook.

The sad thing is, in some respects I have done just that. We have been to counselling because we really wanted to improve our relationship for our own and our child's sake, but it has mean that I feel sometimes like I cannot moan about what I see as an ingrained unfairness RE housework and childcare lest I be accused of having a go.

Though to be fair he has started to pull his weight a bit and is no where near as awful as many of the men I see posted about on here.

Oops, that should have been 20, not 29 years.