Not All Porn: Why the good parts don't matter

[AskBasil]

This is one of the best articles I've read about porn. It just says everything so well

stoppornculture.org/2014/10/21/notallporn-why-the-good-parts-dont-matter/

Winewinewine - I'm assuming that you know that there is big market for "amateur porn" ?

Much of it is professionally made porn produced to look amateur and much of it is not consensual (filmed or put on the internet without participants' permission).

As for the drop in the ocean that is happy jolly consensual couples making videos of themselves that they never regret putting on the interwebs and that they had a splendid time making - see above post about home grown in airing cupboards WRT cocaine/heroin barons.

The arguments for the click of a button orgasm are depressing samey as those for the Saturday night high.

Depressingly samey

Beachcomber, where are you getting your information from I wonder? You sound like you have been reading too much Gail Dines. You say 'good porn' is a drop in the ocean but there is loads of it featured in that top 100 most popular sites on Alexa. Who are these mythical porn baron Mafia you speak of?

WineWineWine totally agree with your comments and a very sensible approach in educating children. Also a good link from Stoya. One thing that has changed a lot with porn over the years is that we are given far more information about the actual porn stars themselves, who do more interviews, are on social networking sites and are discussed in depth on porn forums. So it's really not too difficult to make an informed choice about whether it's ethical porn or not or build up a picture of the standards of the sites they feature on. So this argument from the anti porn lobby of not knowing if they are exploited or not is becoming very weak.

So do you think the majority of porn is now ethical as you describe claire, and that that is what the majority of those accessing it are seeking?

claire

Honest question... But what if you found out in a year or twos time that what you thought was ethical porn (and I'm sure it is) wasn't ?

That the actress was forced to do it or didn't enjoy large parts of it

Would that be ok? Because at the time she said she enjoyed it and it looked like she was having fun

And although I'm not into porn (although I do understand the ethical arguments) it is an honest question

There isn't anything inherently wrong with getting high. There may be things wrong with the industrial machinery which delivers your intoxicant of choice, but there's nothing wrong with seeking aspecific pleasure.

Rufus - Would the fact of her not enjoying large parts of it make it unethical though? There are loads of people who don't enjoy their jobs, but still do them through completely free choice even when they have other alternatives, just because what they get from the job (money, lifestyle convenience, etc.) outweighs their lack of enjoyment.

I also sometimes wonder why that aspect is always framed in terms of specifically male > female exploitation. From what I gather male pornstars also often have to have sex with people they're not particularly into, keep an erection for as long as they're told and then cum on demand. There's probably plenty of them on drugs (not least, viagra!) - and they're paid a fraction of what the women are.

As so often, this comes down to a question of whether sex entered into for reasons other than sexual desire is by definition wrong. A lot of people here seem to think it is; I'm not so sure.

Claire, what is the acceptable ratio of "good porn" to bad on YouPorn, the most popular site by far in one of your Alexa categories?

Common, I think with porn, a lot is made of the actresses saying they are enjoying it (eg Sasha Grey) therefore it's all ok and getting aroused by it is fine. Same isn't true of cleaning etc. And Rufus also said "forced to" as well as "didn't enjoy"

And yes, some men in porn are also probably not enjoying it. On the whole, though, women in "bad porn" will be more at risk of physical effects. Plus this discussion is in feminism, which tends to concern itself more with impacts on women.

Realised that might have come across as dismissive of the impact on men: it wasn't meant to do so.

I agree SGB - there isn't anything inherently wrong with enjoying the feeling of getting high. That was implied in what I said.

There isn't anything inherently wrong in liking diamonds either. But would you use that as an argument to justify the blood diamond trade and expect to be taken seriously??

It's an academic argument that ignores reality. Porn is big business just as drugs and diamonds are big business. Theoretical/philosophical arguments about whether it is wrong to like highs, shiny stones or wanking to explicit material, ignore reality and how the real world functions. They are the arguments of the privileged individual - they have no merit as political arguments.

Clareredfield, I think Gail Dines is great, I haven't read Pornland yet. Have you? I have watched her speak though and I agree with her analysis. I find her analysis of neo-liberalism and how it relates to porn particularly compelling. Are you familiar with it?

Like most feminists I know, I held political objections to pornography before I had even heard of Gail Dines. She writes on and speaks about what a lot of women think, which is why she is appreciated by many. We agree with her, having used our eyes and our brains to observe the real world and form our opinion of that world. I knew I disagreed with porn the first time I saw it as a teenager - I might have been young but I could see that it was misogynistic and rapey.

It's very odd to ask someone where they get their "information" about the porn industry from - does one need to wank to porn to have an opinion on it? It's hardly a secret industry, quite the opposite. Anyone who has the stomach for it can get the measure of it thanks to this useful thing we are all using called the internet.

"Would the fact of her not enjoying large parts of it make it unethical though?" Sex is supposed to be pleasurable. These women are supposed to be portraying a pleasurable act. Of course the fact they aren't actually enjoying it is unethical. What kind of mental hoops do you have to jump through to justify it being ethical? Do you not think women should enjoy sex? Does men's pleasure outweigh the feelings, physical discomfort and pain women may be feeling? Jesus. The world's gone mad. Trying to argue that a woman not enjoying sex is ethical. The fact that is even viewed as a reasonable proposition by some shows the value of women in their minds and how fucked up the system is.

As an aside, is it possible to ever read too much Gail Dines?

common

Sorry you are completely right about the men part

But you haven't answered my question (appreciate that it wasn't directed at you). And I come at this as a person who isn't fussed about watching porn, any porn I have seen in magazines or film have been quite tame (dad's stash...ssshhh) and a long time ago

But I have seen programmes and read articles where women (more so than men) have been quite badly damaged physically and now regret their porn career, and now say that they were forced into it

Someone used an egg analogy earlier....I love eggs but. I don't tend to buy them from supermarkets as I doing agree with battery or barn and I. Can't be sure with a supermarket that they are free range. I buy them from a farm where I can see the chickens...but he does have a lot of eggs....so maybe he buys some of them in? My friend has her own chickens so I know they are free range. But I know the cruelty involved in the egg trade so I should boycott them completely...but I don't

So with porn, some people watch it and don't care whether it's "good" porn, some will only watch "ethical" porn (even though some of it might not be) some will only watch porn that they absolutely know is ethical and some will never watch it because they can't be sure that damage isn't being done

And I know that went on for a bit

I don't think that sex without desire is wrong,

Oh and the jobs bit, husband may not enjoy parts of his job but he earns good money and is respected and listened to so let's say that that's like ethical porn. I enjoy my job, don't earn good money not respected or listened to, so we could compare that to some porn perhaps? There are jobs that are badly paid well under minimum wage, possibly dangerous not good conditions for example done by people who are desperate.

I have no idea where I'm going with that

I'm going to leave it up though, I'm sure I had a point when I started it

This!!!! See this!!! That post I just did!!!

That's why I don't post here!!!!!

Rufus, relax! We all post like that sometimes!

And sometimes Buffy someone else comes along and figures out what we mean and posts it better for us!

yonic

I have to go and sit. In a darkened room

Someone put out the buffy call! I'm assuming it's a red phone or something like the bat signal!!

Using your egg analogy - I would consider buying eggs from SGB, because I've seen her posts often enough (and in a separate context from the social media posts of a porn star who ultimately is aiming to sell product) to be confident in my judgement that she does what she does voluntarily and with enjoyment.

Otherwise, I don't think there's anyone except a past or present sexual partner that I'd know well enough to know if they did enjoy making, err, eggs. And I don't want to get aroused by someone who isn't enjoying it. Let alone anything worse than that, which I don't think is possible for most viewers to judge, given performers will be selected somewhat for their acting ability.

And finally, as evidenced by the Disgrace that Bitch descriptor, obviously some porn that's made (no comment on the percentage but some of their videos had close to 1m views) is directed at those who WANT to believe that the woman in it is being shamed in some way - by your analogy, even if they might be buying free range, they want to believe they are battery farmed.

I actually think that THIS type of imagery does far more harm to girls than porn does, because it is mainstream and everywhere. It is the standard that women are judged by, by other women as well as men.

The perception of porn stars is slightly dated. The volume of amateur porn out there, shows real people. Yes I know there is some pro made amateur stuff but it's really not difficult to tell the difference and there is a vast market for amateur. If you are choosy about the sites you use, there are lots of sites where you can get to know other people who do this because they enjoy it, and they post their own content.

Too many women are still under the impression that they shouldn't really enjoy sex too much. Vanilla is fine, but anything more than that, is derogatory. I have been slated before (under a different name), for daring to mention that enjoy anal sex, because the fact that some women do it, puts pressure on other women to do it. I was having anal sex before I ever saw it in porn.

Porn is not the problem, the sex acts themselves are not the problem. The problem is the fact that we do not teach our teenagers about consent, and how it is fine for one person to enjoy something, but it is equally fine for another person to say no to it. And it is not fine, to ever pressure someone into doing something they don't want to do.

Thank you buffy and yonic-

wine

I do agree completely with your comments re teaching teenagers consent,

I keep writing huge posts and then deleting them I'm much better at debating and putting my opinion forward in real life!,

Wine, I don't disagree that there is a lot of ethical/artisan porn out there. But YouPorn is the 120th most visited site on the whole internet. That's a high number of visitors.

"Too many women are still under the impression that they shouldn't really enjoy sex too much. Vanilla is fine, but anything more than that, is derogatory."

I'm not sure I agree with this. I think the perception is more like "anything more than that is slutty". Which opens a huge can of worms about whether sluttiness is tainting/desirable/expected.

I agree, Amethyst. I think the thrust (sorry) of a lot of the YouPorn stuff is, even if the women are depicted as enjoying it, that they should be ashamed of their enjoyment.