Not All Porn: Why the good parts don't matter

[AskBasil]

This is one of the best articles I've read about porn. It just says everything so well

stoppornculture.org/2014/10/21/notallporn-why-the-good-parts-dont-matter/

Thanks buffy

I read posts like octopuss and can never get a sentence together??? My brain just goes "wtf"

And thank you to all the women on here who keep lurkers like me informed and educated

Lol that we've never actually seen the porn we're talking about.I'll add my voice to Buffy's and say Yes, I have seen porn. The physical damage that happens to porn 'actresses' and the pain that goes with it only mean one thing to me - they are not doing it for their own enjoyment. This is rape. Being raped at knife point down a back alley is not how most rape happens and really shows your naivety.

I'll add mine, I've seen porn, so no, not 'porn I'm watching in my head' actual, real life porn. I also know what rape is, which is more than can be said for Octopus.

"Fictional" being the operative word there really

I am a straight woman and I actually enjoy porn. However, I am horrified at some of the stuff I've come across. Some of the videos I've seen are offensive and to me, glorified rape.

I enjoy watching both straight and male gay porn. My DH watches straight porn with me sometimes, but he isn't interested in the gay stuff. However, I have noticed that it's extremely rare to find violent rape-esque gay porn, whereas it's incredibly easy to find videos of women bein hurt by men.

I know these women choose to get into the industry and they sign a disclosure form, but what I genuinely worry about is my son and daughter seeing this kind of thing.

When I was a kid, we had no internet or cell phones. The only porn anyone saw was if a boy found a dirty magazine. Nowadays, it doesn't matter what child-locks you have on your computer, some kid at school will have parents that don't, and it's likely your kid will see porn too young. I worry that my son will see girls being treated like whores and think that's okay. Similarly, I worry my daughter will see it and think that's how she should act to be a popular girl.

It's messed up. I found a site with testaments from ex-porn actresses stating how messed up the industry is. It makes for some harrowing reading:

www.thepinkcross.org/

Sorry, link was supposed to be:

www.thepinkcross.org/porn-star-confessions

> Your depiction of what rape is, is inaccurate.

I can't tell if you're deliberately misunderstanding me for argument's sake or just not understanding me.

Let's assume the latter.

I did not say that I believed rape consisted solely of those things (violence, threats, physical restraint).

I just asked whether you believed that porn commonly depicts such acts. Because the average person, reading the kind of things being written about porn here by you and other posters, would think that.

Most people here won't look at the actual content. One even thanked you for your fortitude in going to a website and noting down a list of titles. So you're the one who gets to describe porn for the rest of them.

Please put this one point to rest then: whatever the motives or experiences of the women performing in the porn video, do you believe that porn commonly depicts women being forced or coerced into having sex?

And as for the alcohol argument, again I will take you bafflement at face value.

I was just following up the point made by CommonPerson, that the fundamental argument made in that article is flawed, and if you choose to apply it to porn then you should be consistent and apply it to alcohol too. I took the writer's emotive language and substituted the harmful effects of alcohol. It's a common, even hackneyed device, but it serves a purpose. Your response seems to be that you do think society should ban alcohol, and I applaud your consistency.

> In the porn I've seen, what it looks like to me is women pretending to cheerfully enjoy the sort of sexual activity that is pretty degrading and painful.

> a penis shoved hard into her ass, then removed and shoved into her mouth so far that she chokes, then she's turned over and another man comes in and they double penetrate her, hard

> next time you look at a mainstream porn video

Could I ask you again to confirm for us that you believe that kind of activity in a porn video as "mainstream" and that it's common. Do you think for instance that kind of thing happens in 50% of porn, or more?

Because the key argument we're here to talk about isn't "some porn is degrading". I absolutely concede that point. The key argument is, because some porn is that bad, all porn is bad.

Buffy, I think maybe the problem is with your phrase "people who defend porn as an industry". I don't think anybody really does that (apart maybe from representatives of the industry itself, for obvious business reasons). I don't think most people who watch porn, or even don't watch but don't have strong feelings against it, are interested in defending the industry as a whole. People just watch what they watch, and as I said above they can only reasonably be held morally responsible for what they watch.

Perhaps this idea of people defending the industry as a whole has come about by assuming that's what people are doing when they don't CONDEMN the industry as a whole. But it isn't. All they are doing is saying that SOME porn is OK, so the argument shouldn't be against "porn" per se; it should be against the specific areas of abuse committed by some porn producers.

There are really only two overall positions to this - "all porn is bad" and "some porn is OK, but some is bad". If you take the latter position, then there isn't any industry to defend; you are only defending the specific products of that industry that you consider OK.

It's like eating free range rather than battery eggs. You're not implicitly supporting battery farming just because they're both "eggs".

The Pink Cross Foundation is on the dubious side - its founder is an evangelical Christian, anti-abortion and prone to racist statements. I have actually met her and she is one scary fucking nutjob though not as scary as her husband

I defend porn as a valid form of entertainment. Some people like to watch/read sexually explicit entertainment that is designed to turn them on. THere is nothing inherently wrong with that. I am aware that some porn performers are exploited, decieved and otherwise abused and I do not defend that. I do think that supporting, encouraging and publicising porn made by consenting adults who are treated fairly while prosecuting the people who coerce performers, hurt them beyond anything agreed or fail to pay them properly is the best way forward. Legislation against malpractice along with raising awareness of an ethical alternative is much more likely to succeed than prohibition and stigmatizing.

Thanks for background on pink cross, SGB.

Pink Cross sounds like it ought to be a Christian LGBT organisation.

"whatever the motives or experiences of the women performing in the porn video, do you believe that porn commonly depicts women being forced or coerced into having sex?"

How do you know if they aren't?

I'm not a religious person and I already said I watch porn. I don't think it matters what the Pink Cross background is, all that matters is the testimonies of ex porn actresses who tell about their experiences.

If you actually read them, very few actually mention religion at all.

Firstly, forgive me for wading in here with my point of view, I don't post in this section because although I'm a feminist I don't feel I can describe my thoughts and feelings on the topic well enough to do it justice, however in this case I'm awake at 4am and I'd like to have a go at saying my bit.

I have watched porn, I have enjoyed it in the past, I'd like to think I was educated enough now for it to disgust me and terrify me in equal measures.

I apologise for the crude way this will be worded, I'm not great at expressing things in words well so please don't think this is meant to be offensive to anyone anywhere.

I have 3 sons and another child on the way, I have nieces and sisters, male and female friends and relatives.

I find it horrifying that boys and young men will watch mainstream porn and assume that women will behave like the women in the videos, that they will be toned, bronzed figured with perky, symmetrical breasts and shaven, neat vaginas.
It's terrifying and infuriating that they will expect women to perform for them and what's worse is normal women will be judged as ugly and wrong for not naturally doing all this, they'll be talked about and abused for not being porn "stars".

I'm equally as horrified and infuriated that young women and girls are watching porn or are meeting males that have, and thinking that they have to behave like this to gain acceptance and to be what men want and expect them to be, they will do things that hurt them, make them feel physically, mentally and morally uncomfortable. They'll put themselves in the position of trying to be this image of what they are seeing on screen because they've seen if or been socially condition to accept it as normal and ok.
Some will berate themselves for not looking or acting the "right" way, they'll then face the verbal, physical abuse for not enjoying the things being done to them or expected of them.

I hope that makes sense and came out right somewhere, I'm very tired!

It's NOT ok that this is being fed to the younger generations of the world and seen as normal, It makes me angry, saddened and also makes me feel hopeless when it comes to parenting my children and acting as a role model for the young people around me.

>> "whatever the motives or experiences of the women performing in the porn video, do you believe that porn commonly depicts women being forced or coerced into having sex?

> How do you know if they aren't?

This is going to be a really strange conversation if it turns out people don't know what "depict" means.

If I watch almost any mainstream non-porn TV detective show, I can see women apparently being murdered by men. In the show, they were killed. But in real life they are still alive. That show has depicted a murder.

So what I'm asking is, not "do you believe that the women in porn are having sex against their will", but "do you believe that the women in porn are depicted as having sex against their will".

I hope that's clear.

Titsalina, good post.

Octopus, going by the title, do you think:

"Disgrace that Bitch! Slut gets a rough go…"

is depicting a woman having sex freely?

This may well be a brain fart on my part of epic proportions, but one thing that majorly baffles me is why porn doesn't celebrate women?

I mean classical renaissance art seems to celebrate femininity (although I'm pig ignorant of a feminist analysis of it).

Modern porn does look as though it's something the Marquis De Sade would have approved of and I struggle with the notion that a huge number of men are secret sadists, but having said that the evidence does seem to point in that direction.

I'm not sure it celebrates men either, unless we're talking a very narrow view of man as hyper masculine narcissistic control freak.

I echo the concerns of the effects all of this has on the young. I think anyone who has had an even vaguely healthy sex life will not recognise the majority of porn as healthy fulfilling lovemaking.

Sorry didn't get around to replying back as have been too busy but excellent posts Octopus, Solid and Common.

I think going back to Youporn Buffy, people don't generally go to the front page to access it. For example if I google James Deen and Stoya (who are a real life couple) Then I go to the videos tab on google. The forth links down gives a link to youporn of a specific video. It is titled 'amazingly sexy brunette Stoya makes love to her man James Deen' This is how I believe most people access videos from these streaming sites. Typing in 'porn' into Google is never going to give a fair representation of what people are viewing. Also have you not considered that a lot of stuff is downloaded via file sharing sites and Torrents. Also there are a number of forums that link to full HD quality videos using file host sites such as rapidshare for example.
There really is no 'mainstream' in porn, there is so much diverse stuff out there, i think just about every fetish has been covered. Also porn stars come in all shapes and sizes. There really is no stereotypical porn star any more. Taking Stoya for example who I mentioned above she is a pale goth who has small breasts. Yet very popular. It seems people objecting to porn on here are just cherry picking things to suit their agenda, when they obviously have very little knowledge of the whole spectrum of porn that is out there.