Feminist pub no 12: The Bluestocking Returns, this time with goats!

[YonicScrewdriver]

Welcome!

I go for thoughtful then saying, "you know, I'm not really sure."

But in reality dd is only about 100 yards way at most.

I love saying "Dp works part time, so he's got her". Unfortunately, that often has people gushing about how wonderful dp is, and how I must feel jealous as I'm missing out People would never say that to a man who has a wife working pt.

Did anyone hear Grayson Perry talking about "Default Man" on Today this morning?

It was interesting and his New Statesman article is here if anyone fancies a look.

I think it's a great piece.

dragonlette YY to everyone thinking men are amazing.

People think my friend's husband is a superstar as he took 3 months paternity leave. Her 9 months are just taken for granted.

And people assuming you like to work with children because you've got kids. The next time someone says that to me I might have to scream.

trev Great article, thank you.

It also reminds me of The Graveyard Book where the baddies are all called Jack, for every man jack ...

i've said this before but i was open-mouthed when dp's mum said casually "of course when you have children you'll probably want to become a teaching assistant anyway" - this was a propos my saying i was thinking about changing careers

absolutely nothing wrong with being a teaching assistant - a very important and necessary role. but why would having children make any better at that sort of role than i am now? because right now i would be shit at it, and i can't see that changing. and would any parent want their child assisted by a TA who was only doing it because they had children?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29516432

an inspiring and determined teenager

trev that article is great

Hi pubbers.
I have just been lurking on another board where a woman said she is really close to the edge with the way men speak to her on the regular: thinking they are "bringing reason", patronising, using her name patronisingly... and I am thinking about my recently ultra extreme response to dicks harrassing me on the road on my bike and thinking about how I am taking all this ARGH MEN STFU!!! stuff out on them. (I was actually in physical danger this morning - a man stopped his van and got out to come and kick me in, or something, because I swore at him: "big man are you?" I asked him, looking up at him; got away with it; he was totally out of order from the beginning, but have to remember not to drop 4 letter bombs on road-crazed arsehole men)

I am so so so so so tired at work; tired of being patronised by people who actually don't understand what I am telling them and behaving as if I don't get it, and I always have to so so so so so fucking nice to them while constraining my vocabulary, because if I use the polysyllabic words that would explain the thing in a nutshell they wouldn't understand them; but when I try to explain concepts in language they do get, they enter everything from the blinkered, closed ears position that their job in this conversation is to set me on the right path. BUT THEY ARE MISSING THE STUFF THAT MATTERS AND I CAN SEE IT AND THEY CAN'T. So fucking exhausted.

How can I get paid more? I need to maybe start a thread about this and get some advice on this. My job is only sustainable because I have a dp whose career (and other) choices are severely constrained by the amount of time I am out of the house, out of the family. But I am not paid enough to support a family. I have no idea what to do about this.

My feminist rage has changed so much now I am older. I used to be angry about constant sexual harassment. I am still theoretically angry - furious in fact - that girls and young women undergo this, but I am not subject to the physical furious tearful personal rage that comes out of constant personal sexual humiliation. Now I am professionally furious, professionally humiliated. I have 20 years' experience and I have worked so fucking, FUCKING hard, and I am SICK of being treated like an idiot and scratting about for little bits of money to spend on basic, basic things.

I am also feeling provider / nurturer guilt. If I am never with my children then I should have some money to spend on them. It is my responsibility to give them a life. Sometimes I feel like I am practically working for free in the sense that I have nothing left for my children. I feel like living on benefits would be better in that I could give them piano lessons, I can take them places and develop them like privileged children in private schools, but at the moment they get nothing from me.

I used to beat myself up every day about the mistakes I have made but now I just think fuck it. I have made far less mistakes than every man I have ever worked with and been punished far harder. It's time for me to get paid or just give up.

Sorry about the me me me me me. I can't even get to the dr for my asthma prescription and every single breath I struggle to take reminds me that my prioroties are all wrong and it makes me angry because they are not my priorities. I live as if I think this job is more important than the health of my children's mother, but I don't believe that.

The Default Male gaze does not just dominate cinema, it looks down on society like the eye on Sauron’s tower in The Lord of the Rings. Every other identity group is “othered” by it.

Very good article. The above quote sums up an vague notion I have had lately. That as female, I am somehow 'other' for wanting the things in life that The Default Male takes for granted. Many other women don't seem to be aware of the raw deal they are getting, let alone want what The Default Male has, and that make me 'other' amongst women as well. Its an odd place to be...

vezzie your rage is entirely justified. i'm both sorry and angry at what you're experiencing

Vezzie

So sorry. Don't know what to say.

Thanks for that Grayson Perry piece! I entirely agree with his paragraph on "feisty", it has been on my list of loathed adjectives for women for years, especially when used by women of themselves. It sounds like an adorable little kitten spitting or something. a feisty woman can be entirely disregarded, unless you fancy her, in which case you say "you're beautiful when you're angry"

I feel guilty about my outburst before, because of course nearly everyone works very very hard for very little reward and I am lucky that we have somewhere to live and enough to eat and I don't worry about people knocking on the door to take our furniture away.

Thanks for the sympathy, everyone, and the tea, Penguins. Definitely time for a real one of those!

do not feel guilty for that vezzie. that guilt reflex of "other women have it worse" is a very useful tool for keeping women in their place. you can be angry about your own situation at the same time as angry about the injustices and abuse that others face

oh but men have it worse too. I mean the notion of a middle class career - to be comparing myself with white middle class men who are less talented and richer than me - when I could be comparing myself with the millions who are more talented and poorer

I love this

"a sea of dinner jackets; perhaps harshly, my expectations of a satisfying conversation drop." My heart sinks when I am placed at a function between two men whom I don't know well. I know that they are going to bore me to death, whereas if I am placed near women I don't know well, it is more likely that we will test the water, and dialogue, and hint, and seed ideas, until we hit on the thing that we have in common that we can both enjoy talking about

That's so unfair, vezzie - to keep giving all you have but it never being quite enough; for you, for your children, for your colleagues. I can understand your exhaustion. Don't for one moment feel guilty about using this pub for the very reason it exists!

If I may offer two small suggestions, without being a "fixer" instead of a listener and at risk of a) talking bollocks and b) being patronising.... firstly, maybe you should just explain to people using the big words. Baffle them with bullshit (well, to their ears anyway). And when you've got them feeling stymied and stupid, give them with a patronising smile and do your usual explanation, prefaced with, "of course, in more simple terms.....". Just so they know from the get-go that you know exactly what you're talking about and they are the ones in need of education.

And as for your salary troubles, just ask for more. Men do this all the time. Tell your boss that your current earnings aren't making it worthwhile for you and you need more. I realise this carries an extra risk for women that it doesn't for men - we come across as grabby, entitled and pushy, while men come across as confident and assertive. All very unfair, but hopefully worth it.

Hugs anyway, and a nice cup of tea and range of interesting chocolaty biscuits.

vezzie to be comparing myself with white middle class men who are less talented and richer than me - when I could be comparing myself with the millions who are more talented and poorer

That's the thing that keeps the system in place, to keep your eyes on those below you and not on those above. Keeps the expectations low. Your rage is entirely justified.

I thought the Grayson Perry article was distinctly meh. Maybe because it was written by a white, middle class, middle aged, heterosexual man. Many women writers have done better.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/womens-blog/2014/oct/03/when-will-we-stop-calling-successful-women-abrasive

V interesting article on a recent study re women vs men in the workplace. Vezzie, it will resonate with you, I'm sure.

fortune.com/2014/08/26/performance-review-gender-bias/ Here's the original article.

The other day in a big-ish team meeting, a small sub-conversation (about work) developed between a couple of the men. (men do this a lot I notice - they are less inclined to park their thoughts for another time but raise things that occur to them in the moment)*. The boss - a man - barked "SHUSH!" at them because he was mid-sentence in something important he had to get across to the whole team. No one was offended. I found myself wondering what I would have done if I were in his place. "One conversation at a time please", with a firm-but-frigid smile, is probably as rough as I dare. And that's getting close to the "harridan" territory that makes it hard to get people to work with you.

*One consequence of this, that has just occurred to me, is that things get settled without my input. I often have questions and thoughts relating to things that no one else has thought of, and then someone makes a decision without taking them into account, and then a mistake happens, and I feel like a dickhead because I saw that coming and didn't get a chance to put anything in place to prevent it. It's because I don't push my thoughts into existing conversations. People invite me to internal meetings and I think "Oh I will raise that then" and then the meeting gets cancelled because two chaps in some other meeting said "we'll just do it this way" and no one has even noticed that no one asked me what I thought, because I thought that the meeting that was coming would be the time to say something. They think of meetings as their chance to talk, and they have talked, so they don't need a meeting. They don't think about when they might have a chance to listen to others.

so so so so so sick of these twats, well meaning stupid noisy goofy clodhopping eejits stumbling about all over the place and daring to patronise ME

I've been called all of those in the workplace - abrasive, arrogant, bossy etc - but only when I expressed an opinion or said I was good at something (learned quite fast that women are not allowed to regard ourselves as good at things at work). My performance review in one job consisted of my boss telling me I should wear high heels and that my dress sense was "too woolly." I have no idea what that meant as I wear suits. I told him I was hyper mobile (which I am) and can't wear heels and hinted that he might be vulnerable to a discrimination claim and he shut up. I still don't know what he thought of my actual work performance as that didn't get mentioned.

I'm now self employed...