Minor male entitlements

[kentishgirl]

It's not just the big things, it's the little things that are in some way more irritating to me.

Just got out of the dentist. It's a small practise and I guess the receptionist is off sick as the reception desk still had shutters down, so they were a little bit late opening up. One woman was sitting in waiting room when I arrived. A man came in a little after me.

The dentist came out and opened up the desk.

Guess who quickly jumped up and got there to be dealt with first?

Greengrow....are Asian men THICK? I always think that no matter what my culture was/is, I would always be smart enough to figure out that the male and female human is ALWAYS human!!! And therefore EQUAL!!

It is funny how men act so superior yet women are the most human.

Thick Asian men, and women being ''most human". Maybe you aren't as "smart enough" as you think you self-declare, Pepper.

I was asking QUESTIONS....not making statements. Can you tell the difference? Actually, my questions were designed to illustrate that men are not thick..they sometimes CHOOSE to be wicked. Go back, and read again

I lived in SE Asia for five years, by the way. Just so you know.

yes, thanks, I read your post properly the first time, Pepper. Still reads unpleasant, quite stupid and 'wrong', no matter where you have lived fwiw.

What exactly is your point? I am not sure I am smart enough to get it, according to you, so can you repeat it? What is your point here?

I can confirm to you then Pepper, that you aren't 'smart enough', despite the bar being quite low.

Ok...so again, what is your point?

Helloooooooo........

Pa

...ns... What is keeping you so long??

Has anyone seen Pans?

Buffy thank goodness for you!! Yes, you have got it in one!

Buffy thank goodness for you!! Yes, you have got it in one!

I am surprised at it. I'm sorry. I don't like it but I am seeing it more and more which is awful. I don't like racial stereotyping more than the next man but the fact remains these men who seem to think I am not even worth looking at and certainly won't shake a hand are part of a religions or culture where women are second rate, need two women to give evidence to equal that of men in court (that is Sharia) and the like. I would love not to be seeing this and not seeing any difference between white males and those (not all of course) who are mostly Muslim (more Muslim than hindu). I have also worked in Iran and Dubai and have been treated very well there but there are still massive issues about what I can wear, what power I get and how I am treated. One client's brochure has pictures of 400 staff (all male, all in Saudi). It is not surprising that that culture should be brought over here for those from rural Pakistan and I hope we can teach those men that women are equal and often earn more and are better educated than they are and should be respected.

I am not saying all Muslim men in the UK are more sexist than atheist men but I sadly have noticed it more and more recently as I meet more and more of them and it has genuinely surprised me. Nor am I saying it is always a religious issue - look at China - most of those in charge are male despite communism from 1914 supposedly being so keen on men and women being equal.

I think for me the greatest manifestation of it has been Muslim men in work contexts being a bit like men in the UK were in the 1950s, not looking at you, assuming the man will make the decision, not listening. I just never get that from non Muslim men in a work context who know I am probably the most important person in the room. I suppose lack of smiling back if someone smiles at you is just a cultural issue so may well not be sexist. Not shaking hand with women but you will with men is Islamic presumably because I am unclear or touching my hand will get them all sexy or whatever the stupid rule of their invented God might be to control women and their sexuality.

What I do hope is that all those muslim boys growing up in homes where mummy serves and daddy earns will learn from our culture that they might have a female boss and their wife might out earn them and that paying equal respect to women and men is a good thing.

Then what is the difference between the men who do it and the men who don't - because they are surrounded by the same influences. If it isn't upbringing, then what? Innate niceness? Superior awareness? Greater intelligence?

Well, that's a very wide ranging question and, on this thread, we are actually looking at the "men who do," as it were. It's not quite as simple as "those who do" and "those who don't", though, is it? Entitlement (or, indeed, rudeness for that matter) is a complex, many faceted experience. You can't say, this person has it, this person hasn't, as if it was an illness or something, can you? It's quite a complex and often subtle area of study.

And to what do we attribute the behaviour of rude, pushy women? Because they exist too. Where does their entitlement spring from?

This post is about male entitlement and behaviour. The examples outlined (grabbing bacon/hogging armrests/spreading legs on the tube) are things which posters have identified as being done by men. If you want to analyse female entitlement or rudeness then you need to identify the behaviours you are thinking of. Have you seen women helping themselves to more food than men when men are present, have you seen more women hogging armrests on planes, have you seen women taking up extra room on the tube? I haven't and neither have the majority of the posters on this thread, it would seem. What behaviours have you seen women participating in which you identify as entitled and which you would like to analyse? I think that could be quite interesting as I suspect any such behaviours could also be analysed from a feminist perspective.

I don't use public transport, so I cannot comment on that. Pointless raised an issue earlier about women barging round with prams in public. I've certainly had my ankle whacked from behind when I was unable to see someone approaching in that manner.

I am a contractor, so I work at different client sites. I see women shout at and bully fellow workers because they are in a superior position. It happens in about the same ratio as them men who do it. Some people are bullies, regardless of their gender.

And the post has moved on a bit from hogging armrests, so I think it's okay to make it a bit more wide-ranging.

PS Rosa, I still don't know how you suggest we raise men's consciousness about these behaviours without pointing them out to adults, or without eliminating them in childhood by responsible parenting.

Yes yes this has absolutely nothing to do with gender. You are right Curwen. Ladies we are wrong. It's our imagination. Our experiences are just not valid. A man says so. He must know.

Well we aren't going to raise your consciousness. You don't even accept our experiences (despite numerous detailed threads on the subject where woman after woman have seen this in action). Makes you wonder why you are on FWR? You clearly don't believe us.

I don't recognise what Curwen is saying fro my own experience at all. Women are subjected to much more of this kind of thing than men. Men aren't cowering on streets because women are pushing prams at them on the whole.

In offices if women shout at men and be assertive we are told we are harridans or menopausal or some other such phrase where if men are like that they are admired. The fact so very many women see these things is very good evidence they exist. We are not inventing it. That is why sites like everyday sexism are so useful as they comprise a record of female experience. If men feel put out (eg by seeing David Gandy in his pants) then they can complain about that but the way some have been doing so in the press is ridiculous. If you compare the pressure on women to look good compared to that on men there is no comparison.

Minor (and not so minor) female entitlements:

Taking over entire coffee shops with buggies, blocking passageways and sipping one coffee over 2 hours (never seen a man do this and I used to quite regularly take two under 3 out).

Cheaper car insurance (until very recently).

Embarrassing men by imagining every look is a 'leer' or 'creeps them out' while shamelessly ogling men that they fancy even if they are 20 years younger.

Ostracising men with babies at 'parent's' meet ups.

Shamelessly calling male privilege whilst demanding privilege for themselves such as female only times and spaces at gyms where both sexes pay equal fees.

Nawalt and, in certain professions and strata of society, there is still misogyny and prejudice. But it is far from a one way street.

Oh, the Borg consciousness has arrived. Conveniently ignoring the point that I specifically said bullying in the workplace takes place on an equal footing. Yeah, let's skip that because it doesn't fit our narrative. And let's skip the fact that I said I don't use public transport so I cannot comment. Do you ever find that - you don't experience something, so you think it best not to comment?

But no, let's all steam in. Oh, and let's skip the overt racism that has occurred up page because, well, it was wimmim what said it and we can analyse that from a feminist perspective......

Got to go out and work now. Man's stuff, you see....now who can I subjugate today....?

larrygrylls, can you not see that each of those is an utter fucking trifle?

People like you boil my piss. As a feller, I think there is some hyperbole on this site (and even - gasp - the occasional post that meets the definition 'misandry'). But there's a lot of illuminating stuff too. But you're clearly just here to pick a brain-dead argument. grow the fuck up.

Curwen, you're right about women catching your heels with their buggies though. I think that is broadly comparable to FGM (insert appropriate sarcastic smiley for the hard of thinking)

Yes, there's an irony here, isn't there?! It's interesting that you acknowledge that, as you don't use public transport you can't comment on it. However, you are not a woman and therefore don't experience men exercising minor male entitlements over you, yet you clearly have much to comment on the subject!!

Anyway, to indulge your confusion further.........

You have identified a behaviour which you think women exhibit, ie shoving into people with their prams. The second step is to identify whether it is, in fact, an example of female entitlement or rudeness or whether, actually, it is a behaviour equally participated in by men. (Personally this is not a behaviour I have noticed in either sex so, at this point in the conversation, I would have to disagree with you that this is an example of female entitlement, but I digress.....) The third step is to analyse why this might be. Are women subconsciously displaying some kind of right to have more space than men when they are caring for children and is this reasonable etc etc. Then you could analyse this from a feminist perspective - why do women feel like this, is it because they are traditionally powerless in other areas of society/is it merely observable because more women push prams than men etc etc

Further, to gain your PHD, you could analyse why I disagreed with at the first hurdle. Perhaps you have experienced more prams being shoved at you than I have because you are male and I am female? Why might that be? Could it be that you are subconsciously, as a an entitled male member of society, taking up more space in shops or not noticing women struggling with prams in confined spaces trying to get round you? Or is there something about your appearance (are you very tall, very obviously male - eg do you wear one of those football tops or something?) which causes women suddenly to become enraged and unleash all their frustrations about the male sex against you, thus causing them to ram their prams into your ankles?

As you say, the behaviours we analyse and the results could be very wide ranging.