Minor male entitlements

[kentishgirl]

It's not just the big things, it's the little things that are in some way more irritating to me.

Just got out of the dentist. It's a small practise and I guess the receptionist is off sick as the reception desk still had shutters down, so they were a little bit late opening up. One woman was sitting in waiting room when I arrived. A man came in a little after me.

The dentist came out and opened up the desk.

Guess who quickly jumped up and got there to be dealt with first?

That's an interesting point Buffy.

My DHs best friend is from China and he is always full of praise of SAHM and their role educating and emotionally supporting everyone - seems to be culturally quite a high status role (not necessarily what you would expect from China, a country which clearly has sexism issues in other ways)

I feel like I should say he's not the only Chinese person I know just the one who is most vocal about something we had noticed iyswim.

There's quite a lot of evidence that occupations lose value when they become predominantly female: teachers in the UK; doctors in Russia; clerks/typists; nurses. Plus, of course, SAHM work is traditionally done by servants.

These occupations generally seem to acquire emotional 'value' as they lose economic status. It's like some sort of booby prize. This might be why we often get annoyed with people acknowledging their low economic value without elevating their moral status (as Greengrow apparently did.)

looking at how something is valued (i.e. paid) in a capitalist patriarchy is exactly the wrong way to determine what is important in a feminist sense

I disagree, perhaps diametrically! Economic devaluation of 'womens work' is both a symptom and a cause of oppression. My preferred solutions generally involve re-distributing work, value, and expectations.

FWIW, I don't think every mother should have a right to choose to SAH.

Oh, good, we're not diametrically opposed

Oh, I dunno. Better ask a man.

"I suppose if someone is a SAHM, enjoys it and regards it as something important they are doing, it is unfortunate (and rude) to tacitly accuse them of feeling this way because they are stupid"

As someone who has just scaled back my work (self-employed) massively because I felt that prioritising my exisiting child, expectant child and my own health (physical and mental) was currently more important I just wanted to say thank you for your comment above, Buffy. I believe work is important, I hate not having any financial independence, I strongly identify with feminist ideals, but both DH and I wanted our children to have a parent at home during their early years and this outweighed all other considerations to me. And yes, DH could have stayed at home, but due to a long period of ill-health in my twenties I am massively behind him on the career ladder and not working in such a financially rewarding field either, so boring old logistics won out.

I was actually thinking of starting a thread on this in FWR, I may still do it, but it seemed relevant to the thread so out it blurted. Basically I had to compromise somewhere, I chose work as the lesser sacrifice, but am struggling to reconcile that with my feminist ideals.

And in terms of the minor male entitlements - telling me what I am thinking/should be thinking/that I'm wrong because I disagree are the things that wond me up above and beyond almost everything else. The one thing that is truly mine is my brain and my thoughts - don't you dare deny me that.

They are interesting topics. I said much of the life nad work of women at home is deadly dull and I believe that to be so. I have adored bearing children breastfeeding them, cuddling them, talking and reading to them and that for 2 or 3 hours a day is great. More than that and it is too much particularly as most of the role is clearing up sick and the like - we had three children under 5. This is not a male conspiracy. It is pure fact. Every culture at every stage has always off loaded dull domestic stuff downwards. The Romans used slaves. The Victorians had 1m servants etc etc Women in the UK off loads much of the domestic role as soon as they can afford too - that is not because their eyes have not been opened to how wonderful it is to clean the loos but that in fact much of the domestic role is not interesting. To con women into thinking all they have to do is look at the role of washing the 5th load of baby clothes that day as some wonderful life and then all is well does women a huge disservice and keeps us down and chained.

Green, we have this argument with you all the time - not all people are bored of kids after 2-3 hours ( I hope your nannies weren't, for one!) and it's rude of you to insist that they are.

I, personally, agree that working is more fun for me than childcare, but I don't insist everyone feels the same.

The other thing, of course, is that housework has to be done by someone or by several someones and not everyone can afford to pay someone else, even if they out earn their husbands by some modest multiple.

Greengrow, I recognise your repetitive posts. No name change can change that.

You are not very good at listening

I have not for a good few months discussed this topic but it's a crucial issue for women, isn't it? Are they conned into thinking staying home is wonderful in a sense as a tactic by men to keep them out of power or is being home a higher calling and men are the idiots to be clamouring to do the housework or whatever.

I think it is a legitimate topic to debate.

(I have never voluntarily name changed on line anywhere.)

It is relevant to the thread topic, I think. Looking at the early evening traffic today, I wondered how many of the women had groceries in the car/bus/train ... and how many of the men.
I wondered how many women, on opening their front door, would be met by a dog that's been walked & fed, kids already glaring at their homework with the little ones washed & pyjama-ed, and a partner who's done the shopping and planned the meal. We can guess how many men would!
I guessed that many women, arriving home with shopping, would go straight into the kitchen to start the dinner; I wondered how many of their partners also go straight from office exit to domestic duties.
Minor male entitlements aren't so minor when they mount up like that every day, are they?
And that's not even mentioning the women who have to do it all, while the fathers of their children go from office to pub and grab a takeaway.

I think you do have to separate the being with your kids from the housework though. True, very few people enjoy doing the washing for the umpteenth time. But similarly very few people can afford to pay someone for that (whether one or both parents work). What a lot of people (of both sexes) find fulfilling is spending days with their children. So taking care of a chunk of housework because they are the ones at home is the 'price' some people pay for spending time with their kids.

It doesn't necessarily mean that they have been conned.

What many women would like is a world where they can work part time and spend some days with their kids and some at work. And, crucially, where the expectation would be that their partner would do the same.

That's really true, Garlic. I did a full day at work, took my son swimming, came home and made supper, changed the beds and washed up - DP did a full day at work, played football, came home and ate supper, and is now flopping with DS in front of the telly. I have asked him to get the washing in off the line and put his bike in the shed. Not actually sure if either of these things will get done.

Garlic, I think about this all the time. Really, men should be doing a much better job of running the world, given that they've bog all else to think about in the main.

As I've said before, that's where the real glass ceiling lies. In the home.

This is rather sideways, but economically and socially I love the idea of limiting everyone to a 4 day working week. For families, there would be so many advantages. And for people who don't need to worry about childcare more time for a more relaxed work/life balance, you could allow studying on rest days so people who would like to change career or move up actually have time to do it.

Me too TeWi.

It obv is a topic for debate, and the 'men as a class' issue is equally and obv pertinent. But certainly NAMALT and lots of us do get the value of being at home and don't, or at least didn't, get bored in a couple of hours by being with the little one/s and looking after the shopping/house/domestic tasks. As, like anything, it's really interesting IF you see it as interesting and worthwhile. I'd been role-modeled by a v long standing friend about this sort of thing. No, it wasn't a 'career' for either me or dd's mum. We had economic choices as we were both 'earners'.
But Greengrows apparent disdain for such things is slightly odd, to me at least, esp when I think she is a long time poster and was always a bit when I'd thought she was one of the very few women I have heard of who could have 'had it all.'

Part-time work - for both would be perfect.