Minor male entitlements

[kentishgirl]

It's not just the big things, it's the little things that are in some way more irritating to me.

Just got out of the dentist. It's a small practise and I guess the receptionist is off sick as the reception desk still had shutters down, so they were a little bit late opening up. One woman was sitting in waiting room when I arrived. A man came in a little after me.

The dentist came out and opened up the desk.

Guess who quickly jumped up and got there to be dealt with first?

'It really doesn't make you sound a nice person if you don't want to pick up your DCs sometimes and hear be the first to hear the ups and downs of their day.'

Really, Elephants?
My dcs don't talk about school on the way home - it all seeps out later in the course of the evening.
I am a SAHM but I'd happily delegate the school pickup if I could! I don't think it means someone's not nice.

I don't always want to do school pick up, DD2 used to whinge not talk about her day, but greengrows comment was patronising beyond belief.

I too am a SAHM and I get totally fucked off by 'career women' forgetting they can only earn what they do by relying on poorly paid nursery workers and CMs to do the things they feel are beneath them.

It does the cause of feminism no good, if bright women simply treat less educated women in a similar way to a boss interacting with his female admin staff.

I liked doing school pick up too. If I did it now though, I think DS would never forgive me. If I drop him off, I have to leave him round the corner.

The cookies for doing stuff that never gets noticed if I do it drives me bonkers though. That and I am the only person who changes the hand towels, refills the loo roll caddy, sprays the shower after I've used it. It also turns out that I am the sock matching pixie, who knew.

DH is really good though, don't get me wrong, but he does expect to be thanked for doing things which just have to be done in order for the house to run smoothly.

Elephants I really don't see what's wrong with Greengrow saying she finds school pickup boring and would rather allocate it to others.

a) she has pointed out that she earned 10x her husband - maybe he was the one doing pickups, not the nanny/CM that you assume.

b) even if it was a nanny/CM - I don't think her comment implied she had "forgotten" she could only do her job by using their services. She just didn't mention it. Are we all supposed to say "and of course I can only do this thanks to my wonderful nanny/cleaner/au pair" every time we mention our careers? Lest we be seen to be taking them for granted?

c) Saying you find a particular task boring is not the same as demeaning the people who you have delegated it to. I'd get bored if I spent all day every day looking after my DD. Our nanny doesn't. Doesn't mean I am better than her - just means we enjoy different things.

I think you're possibly reacting to things Greengrow has said at other times rather than that particular post?

Mini - I think maybe a big part of the issue is phrasing. Given that you don't have facial expressions, etc to guide you, when someone says "it is very boring", if you don't find it boring, or actually think it is a valuable part of your day and use of your time, you instinctively often respond "no it isn't" and become defensive. If someone says "I find it very boring and would rather allocate it to others" it is more immediately obvious it is an opinion, and that other opinions are also valid. So less likely to trigger that type of response.

Of course, we can all phrase things however we like, but different phrasing does produce different results. Personally I like pick up. Drop off I find dull, but I like it when they come out of the door, see you, and grin. And I like the slow decompression of walking home and starting to talk.

"I think you're possibly reacting to things Greengrow has said at other times rather than that particular post?"

Elegantly phrased

But everyone knows that what is boring is a subjective thing. Do we really have to say "I find it boring" rather than "it's very boring" to make that subjectivity clear?

ABland I'm sure you know the other posts I mean!

Erm, how to put this...

Yes, I do think you need to say "I find X boring" if you are talking about something which is very important to a lot of people. Particularly if you are known for making strong and sweeping factual statements on matters domestic.

Isn't this slightly where we came in with the style of some of Larry's statements?

I was about to point out that many men don't feel the need to qualify their opinions in that way!

Penguins I guess it's a question of how much a poster cares about being tactful...

On the subject of work environments, I find it both hilarious and frustrating that I'm often mistaken for an older man's research assistant or PA at industry events, purely by dint of happening to stand next to him. No one man in particular, I mean. Just whoever I'm talking to at the time, other men assume I'm with them in a junior role.
I used to head up an organisation which among other things ran seminars for senior professionals in a particular field. Every time, at least half of the delegates would think I was the receptionist, catering manager, etc etc...

It is amusing watching them realise their mistake, twig OH SHIT SHE'S ONE OF US, backtrack and then do that insouciant 'lalala you didn't just see me do that' thing which cats do after falling off the fence or a windowsill.
A kind of tacit 'Let us never speak of this again' vibe.

Not that there is anything wrong with those jobs at all btw. Just remarkable how differently men behave towards me when they think that's what I do. Makes me quite angry tbh. I never notice women treating other women so differently on the basis of work status.
(NAM of course).

about that Amy Cuddy TED talk and men spreading their legs and arms all over - it's also a privilege, isn't it, that men are not discouraged from doing that. First by wardrobe choices - it's quite difficult to spread your legs in an "appropriate" business wardrobe for women, pencil skirt suit or shift dress. Also, since we were kids, we girls were always told that this is not proper and pretty and ladylike. And we should sit, arms and legs neatly folded.

Now, we saw that just 2 minutes of folding yourself lowers your testosterone, raises your cortisone and therefore makes you less confident. I would guess that effects of a whole lifetime of folding are quite noticeable.

1. Yes, I agree that being the speaker is a different context. I don't tend to get the same trouble with men even in the breaks as I might when out and about (I sometimes cycle and quite often men whistle or slow down or wind down the window which is ridiculous at my age). I am certainly not disputing there is no causal sexism. There is far too much of it although the more women can seize power the less men will see them as domestic servants.

1. It is never wise for women on mumsnet to suggest some domestic tasks or boring. I should have learned that by now. Housework and childcare is some sacred thing we should all want to do 24/7 because it is some higher calling.

I am certainly not disputing there is no causal sexism. There is far too much of it although the more women can seize power the less men will see them as domestic servants.

This point, I agree with most heartily. I'm all in favour of feminism encouraging women to 'take back' (= get hold of in the first place) social & verbal space being annexed by men.

The contempt of SAHM duties, not so much Wouldn't be my choice, but lots of people find my choices boring! Are you the poster that sold her tropical island, by any chance?

1. So how do I as a woman deal with a random man shouting at me just because I'm a woman? It's not upbringing and I'm not a victim.

1. Noone expects women to love the shit work that is involved in bringing up children or running a home. It's shit work which is undervalued by society. Making sarky comments about it being some 'sacred thing' is shitty.

I said some tasks are boring so I get others to do them. I don't think that means I am denigrating women or men who choose to do those tasks.

I think there is pernicious sexism in the suggestion I often see on mumsnet and in the wider world though that somehow there is something special and full of worth about a woman staying at home with a child and doing the house stuff. It is a technieque many a man uses - he will say "I could not do what my wife does" My wife has the hardest job in the world. She's a saint. That sentiment is what keeps women down - the elevation of the duller tasks to something special for which we sanctify and praise women rather than saying - more fool you to get landed with the muggins jobs when you could be out there like men having a more balanced life of earning a lot and exerting power in the world. Let us have the thrones rather than some awful kind of power behind the throne rubbish.