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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Minor male entitlements

464 replies

kentishgirl · 18/09/2014 09:41

It's not just the big things, it's the little things that are in some way more irritating to me.

Just got out of the dentist. It's a small practise and I guess the receptionist is off sick as the reception desk still had shutters down, so they were a little bit late opening up. One woman was sitting in waiting room when I arrived. A man came in a little after me.

The dentist came out and opened up the desk.

Guess who quickly jumped up and got there to be dealt with first?

OP posts:
rosabud · 21/09/2014 20:47

Cross-posted. Bellecurve YY!

GarlicSeptimus · 21/09/2014 20:48

Buffy - Well, the real issue is that we shouldn't have to be competing with men to be more macho! A lot of these space-invading and master/servant type annoyances do, I think, come from habitual macho posturing and aren't conscious. If they are done consciously, we've got ourselves an arsehole and a battle. But many of the things mentioned seem to be consequences of habitual machismo meeting habitual femininity. If we can't wipe out the masculine side of the equation, we can attempt to reduce the conflict by abandoning the feminine performance - we can't change other people, but we can change our interactions with them, etc, etc.

What women consider rude often isn't. Interrupting, for example. Saying "No" for another. If you have raised your volume, it's clear you intend to be heard and you shouldn't have to be louder in decibel terms than everyone else. In a one-to-one conversation or small group, lowering your voice can work better. Women are often scared of giving orders, making direct requests, even of offering opinions without apologising first. And are too quick to retreat. So you lose a few; you just keep going if necessary, or cede without shame.

A small person can square up to a larger 'looming' one. It doesn't look as weird as it sounds! The main point is not to shrink or step back - it's a tiny bit of power play via body language: it is important, but it's not a fight. I've noticed that many women never stand full-square to men. They're always angling their bodies, tilting their hips and face, leaning on one foot, looking through their eyelashes, smiling ... centuries of our history have required that we constantly signal submission to the male. Tbh, all this can be overcome in a single assertiveness class, if it's good enough, or a short NLP course if you feel like going into it from a deeper level.

Anything else I write now will be assumptive, so I'll wait & see if people want to continue in this vein or not.

ElephantsNeverForgive · 21/09/2014 21:00

Taking up space, he has a study, but gather than tidy it, we get computers and box files and stuff dumped in the kitchen and the living room and woe betide me if it gets moved because it's in the way.

He never declutters and I've heaps of magazines I'd like to lock him in our bedroom until he sorts.

He also has size 11 feet, his shoes take up way too much floor, hall and shoe rack, but I suppose that's not his fault.

GarlicSeptimus · 21/09/2014 21:02

I'd like assertiveness to be taught properly in schools, to both sexes. It's the natural corollary to rights & responsibilities - which are taught, but with inadequate attention to social execution of those things.

GarlicSeptimus · 21/09/2014 21:03

Chopping his feet in half might be a slight over-reaction Grin

BuffyBotRebooted · 21/09/2014 21:09

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GarlicSeptimus · 21/09/2014 21:17

Yh, I get you, Buffy!

Actually, if you don't do body language then you probably aren't signalling submission :)

BuffyBotRebooted · 21/09/2014 21:27

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GarlicSeptimus · 21/09/2014 21:32
ElephantsNeverForgive · 21/09/2014 21:36

Yes, I'm afraid it might. I guess he's too old for a bit of oriental foot binding to have any effect.

I only take 4's and he would argue I own more shoes than he does. And a fair percentage of them would fit in the space occupied by his wellies!

BuffyBotRebooted · 21/09/2014 21:41

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cromwell44 · 21/09/2014 21:49

Male entitlement to make jokes to unknown woman but complete shock if a witty retort is given back. This happened to me today and I realise it happens fairly regularly.
Example: I just finished at cashpoint, perfectly pleasant males arrives and cracks a funny I crack one back, he looks confused.
I get the impression only the man can do the jokes, my role is to be amused.
Anyone else experience this?

ballsballsballs · 21/09/2014 22:03

cromwell I love telling jokes and quite enjoy the fact that some men find it annoying. Grin

BuffyBotRebooted · 21/09/2014 22:03

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Cherriesandapples · 21/09/2014 22:13

I don't get many of these problems to be honest but I think it was because my dad always treated me like a boy and included me in his macho world, took me with him to work in argriculture, the pub (when pubs were full if blokes and it was beer and peanuts not wine and food) and let me fix trucks and taught me to read maps! It's an upbringing thing!

scallopsrgreat · 22/09/2014 00:10

I don't think how your Dad treated you would necessarily be reflected for the rest of your life in how other men treat you Cherries. In fact I don't see how that is relevant. It may have changed your behaviour. But it doesn't change the behaviour of men in general and it wouldn't change their perception of you that you are a woman and in some eyes that means you are below them in the hierarchy. Especially if they don't know you e.g. taking up space on trains, in swimming pools etc.

But have you wondered why your Dad treated you as a boy and not just you? What is wrong with being a girl? Why did he have to treat you as a boy to do those things with you?

EBearhug · 22/09/2014 01:15

My father did most of those things with me, except the pub bit (he didn't tend to go to the pub at all.) I am pretty sure it wasn't treating us as boys, though, but just teaching us stuff because it's useful. I think that's partly why I am a feminist, because I saw other people didn't have that experience, and there wasn't actually any reason for it (except the bit where they didn't grow up on a farm.) It was also reading things like "women can't read maps" and knowing that's just rot, because most of the women I know can.

Zazzles007 · 22/09/2014 05:35

I get the impression only the man can do the jokes, my role is to be amused. Anyone else experience this?

Oh yes. I worked at one company who I later found out had been taken to court for its racist and sexist hiring policies for management (figures, huh!?). I have been told I am quite funny, but at this one company I worked at, the jokes kept falling flat amongst these very sexist men. I almost gave up, except one time I cracked a funny, and it was clear that the men were having real trouble keeping the giggles in. I realised that it wasn't me, it was them.

sashh · 22/09/2014 06:45

And as for driving/parking at school collection time ...9

I'm sorry don't men drive at these times? Is there some law I don't know about?

Cherriesandapples · 22/09/2014 08:27

Well, that it just it. I felt that this was just the ways things were done, gender irrelevant! I do think it has had an impact on the way that men react to me though because any interaction is a two way thing!

ElephantsNeverForgive · 22/09/2014 08:48

The way the only Dad who picked up from school was allowed always to be late. "He's got a business"
He never looked faintly apologetic.

If any of the mums were that late they scurried in looking sorry.

ChunkyPickle · 22/09/2014 09:55

The buggy thing has been on my mind since I read this thread. Personally I hate the things, and only use one if I know my toddler is going to be out for so long he'll need somewhere to nap. Otherwise I carry him (on shoulders - too heavy for the sling now) or now he's nearly 1 I even make him walk.

I think that larry is confusing taking the kids out for the afternoon to spend time with them and having the kids with you while you have to do everything else. As the place where the kid-care buck stops, I have the kids with me when shopping, when trying to do DIY, cook, garden, wash, wee, work and everything else - so yes, you know sometimes they are just there and I'm looking at something else (although I have been known to do most things with a baby in one arm when I have to..). So there's an entitlement being displayed - being able to enjoy the kids, and not have to do all the boring stuff for/with them

Sorry for bringing the derail back a bit, but it's really been grinding my gears judging a parent like that!

Greengrow · 22/09/2014 10:09

A lot of my talking is giving talks. Often more men than women will be present and they have paid hundreds of pounds to hear me. I suspect that is a very different context from most women's experiences. So I speak - 3 hours tomorrow for example - I like it when people have questions and I never have problems with men not shutting up but the dynamic is me in charge so none of them would misbehave. We need many more women do do this kind of thing. Half of lawyers are women and yet at the courses I speak at women don't speak anything like as much as men do. I planned a course earlier this year for later this year and proposed 100% female speakers as an experiment. We have ended up with 2 men and 2 women and that will be because women turned down the change to speak. That 50/50 is fine as I am also speaking and chairing but 100% would have been nicer.

Also I go on Radio 4 from time to time and often women turn down the chance to do that. I'm not surprised it often means a car at 6.30am and your morning routine disturbed or out late and there is no fee. When my children were smaller it was easier for me than other women as I earn 10x their father so my career was our best investment and I always loved the sound of my own voice.

My only point here is as a woman at work do push yourself forward to be the one giving the talk, doing the session, taking up the chance to go on the radio or TV even if it puts you out and means getting out of bed early. We need more women doing that kind of thing.

On sitting I sit most of the day with one leg up on my thigh - a sort of half lotus. I love it when I get an empty plane seat next to me as I can spread like that. I certainly don't mind taking up lots of space and bring a big bad to assert my right to more space.

I've never done school collection as it's very boring as I'd rather allocate it to others.

ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy · 22/09/2014 10:13

So right, chunky.

ElephantsNeverForgive · 22/09/2014 10:27

I've never done school collection as it's very boring as I'd rather allocate it to others.

Other lower paid women Nannies and CMs you mean!

It really doesn't make you sound a nice person if you don't want to pick up your DCs sometimes and hear be the first to hear the ups and downs of their day.

The rest of your post was really good, but you spoil it totally with that ridiculously smug last line.