Minor male entitlements

[kentishgirl]

It's not just the big things, it's the little things that are in some way more irritating to me.

Just got out of the dentist. It's a small practise and I guess the receptionist is off sick as the reception desk still had shutters down, so they were a little bit late opening up. One woman was sitting in waiting room when I arrived. A man came in a little after me.

The dentist came out and opened up the desk.

Guess who quickly jumped up and got there to be dealt with first?

Buffy,

Yes, I see what you are saying. However, I do think that in a discussion about values/ideas, that whatever anyone states has to be taken as their opinion and too many 'I thinks' and 'it seems' lead to very long verbose posts. I see this as more internet forum language vs master's essay language. I would not write in the same way in both fora.

But, yes, I see how it could be misperceived. I am also multitasking these days so don't have hours to craft beautiful posts. Apologies if my language is too stark.

No one has said that men shouldn't be able to post here. What a ridiculous, flouncy, gaslighting thing to say!

What happened on this thread yesterday was that a few women posted some fairly mild gripes about small male entitlements, and 3 men, who have a history of dismissing women's lived experience, came along to tell us that that lived experience was wrong. That women do it too. That in fact, women are worse because they also do these things...... When they were called out on it, one disappeared, one went on the attack and the other just carried on bringing up more and more spurious examples.

This has nothing to do with who hosts the discussions. Or do we all have to agree that we're just making up our lived experience to meet men's exacting demands about how women behave online?

Anyway, enough of following this derail. Although it has been an object lesson in minor male entitlement again. Men's voices MUST be heard, even in feminist discussion, or the women should find somewhere else to speak.

I'll leave Buffy to reply to your 11:35 post, Larry, as it's addressed to her

I'm agreeing with the above points about different verbal styles for different circumstances. Forums are a bit tricky, as they simulate a RL conversation in writing - so qualifiers help to fill in the bits we'd convey through tone of voice, facial expression, etc. In the context of this very topic, for instance, I could VERY easily contribute a mini-essay entitled "Women need to grow some balls!" It'd be full of my frustrations at women's general reluctance to take what is their right ... and this thread's all about men taking those things from women, so I'd come over unsympathetic and blaming.
I honestly don't think I give this impression in real life! But written speech calls for more anticipation & consideration. Imo.

Puffin certainly writes it as it is.
I also resent when people say I must be male because I will often a have a view and know it's right and say so or because I like money and power and success. I find that really sexist. Many people male or female have no ambition at all and it's not fair to say women who happen to be the kind of woman who is ambitious are somehow not women or wrote or not female.

Buffy & Greengrow

I shall take this opportunity to write the post I never write, then ...

MN: Men do this & that undermining behaviour to women.
Me: Well, don't let them!
MN: But I've been socialised to give way to it.
Me: Why not do this & that instead?
MN: You just don't get it! Waah!

Although, actually, I do get it and that's why I'm a feminist. We have to identify & name these things before acquiring tools to overcome them.

("Doing this & that" would apply to minor entitlements, not deliberately aggressive acts. They're a whole other bunch of topics.)

So this is an interesting question. How do we challenge it in some of the circumstances detailed in this thread?
Ways of challenging it often involve either being regarded as rude, or risking provoking aggression. And it would be rare for the man in question to understand the point we were trying to make anyway.
When I'm walking down the street I can refuse to move over, yes. But in the pool? In the office?

Having thought about it a bit more, it feels like it's a fear reaction.

Women are sharing experiences, they expose a mild level of male privilege, but I am a nice guy, I would never patronise or deliberately oppress women, how can I counteract this?

Cue:

You're wrong
Women do it too
I don't do it so no man does it
You're lying
I want to talk about this other thing now, and will continue to refer to it until you fall into line

Type posts.

What I don't get is the fear. If you're a nice guy who supports equality, then surely having low level stuff which can be easily sorted is better than being constantly faced with huge insurmountable problems? I know it is for me when told about low level stuff people of colour face, while I can't break down societal barriers because I don't have the power, I can stop doing stupid thoughtless stuff which makes life more unpleasant for PoC, because I know I have privilege in those situations. Why would men not want to do the same?

I do find it strange that, given the title, a number of the posts from men were either addressed at a given poster (get a grip et al) or immediately adding one or more "female" examples without first acknowledging some of the "male" examples given or giving new "male" examples.

It's not that we all agree - a few posters said "oh, I don't experience that on trains" or whatever.

Absolutely ABland, but none of the women who said that they hadn't experienced something then assumed that the person who did was lying or needed to get a grip or whatever. Unless I missed a page of the thread.

I agree Buffy, but what would we hope to gain out of lying about such trivia? I am bamboozled.

Yes. There is a difference between "I haven't had that" and "that doesn't happen".PARD and all that.

Yes, that is an interesting (apparent) condundrum and is a basic illustration of why we need feminism.

Buffy - some of things I do might not work if you aren't tall or loud, but in general I think they work for anyone, regardless. Quietness is probably a bigger drawback than small stature. It's often necessary to project the voice. The other important thing is getting used to the fact that some misogynists (of both sexes) will dislike you for not performing femininity. Personally, I feel this as no loss.

I also feel that any individual who's likely to assault me for standing up to them is already dangerous - my behaviour doesn't make them so. I'll perform reasonable femininity if I think it'll stop someone attacking me: that's a crisis judgement to be made in the moment. It is certainly no protection against potential assault.

Obviously the complete answer to the thread's problem is teaching our young people to properly respect one another as fully individual humans. We live in a culture that doesn't yet do this, however, and my belief is that each of us can change that culture by choosing not to act out certain roles expected by it.

I bloody hope that makes sense! I'm typing in between doing something else.

Yes, that is an interesting (apparent) condundrum and is a basic illustration of why we need feminism.

Buffy - some of things I do might not work if you aren't tall or loud, but in general I think they work for anyone, regardless. Quietness is probably a bigger drawback than small stature. It's often necessary to project the voice. The other important thing is getting used to the fact that some misogynists (of both sexes) will dislike you for not performing femininity. Personally, I feel this as no loss.

I also feel that any individual who's likely to assault me for standing up to them is already dangerous - my behaviour doesn't make them so. I'll perform reasonable femininity if I think it'll stop someone attacking me: that's a crisis judgement to be made in the moment. It is certainly no protection against potential assault.

Obviously the complete answer to the thread's problem is teaching our young people to properly respect one another as fully individual humans. We live in a culture that doesn't yet do this, however, and my belief is that each of us can change that culture by choosing not to act out certain roles expected by it.

I bloody hope that makes sense! I'm typing in between doing something else.

Shit, sorry for x2 post.

'Cheer up love'. Because if I'm not smiling at all times I'm not fulfilling my role as decorative human being.

Expecting cookies for doing things that women (NAWALT :) ) do without thanks every day, such as childcare, cooking, washing up and 'multitasking'. DH generally does more domestic chores than I do, but yesterday told me he'd loaded the dishwasher for me...

Male entitlement to assume that their child's wellbeing, emotional and physical needs - clothing, housing, food and education will continue to be met without their input if their relationship with the child's mother breaks down.

YY Bellecurve. See also 'babysitting' their own kids.

Oh I'm so glad this thread went back on course (for a bit, anyway!). I liked Luis's post - and all of Buffy's attempts to reason and explain (hats off, as usual!)

The minor male entitlements I would like to list are:

1. Classroom behaviour - actually this isn't minor, thanks to disruption and teachers being (understandably) desperate to get all their targets, teaching styles and contents of lessons are being shamelessly designed to cater for loud, dsruptive boys -and a generation of girls are having to adjust themselves and their learning patterns accordingly.

1. Shouting in public - from the obviousness of "laddish behaviour" right down to being able to yell to attract an acquaintance's attention on a busy high street. Technically speaking a woamn can yell, "Oi, Mary!!!" across a crowded shopping mall but they don't, it just isn't acceptable.

1. Christmas.