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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminist Pub X: Regulars and new faces welcome, consciousness raising is a possibility.

999 replies

CaptChaos · 30/08/2014 00:33

The old pub now has less than 10 posts to go, so I thought I'd start a new one. The old one can be found here

This is a place for feminist pom pom waving and talking about stuff which might not need a thread for itself.

Fill your boots.

OP posts:
ElephantsAndMiasmas · 11/09/2014 17:21

Which one is that scallops?

AnnieLobeseder · 11/09/2014 17:35

I have been there and done that for you scallops. Though I see no need to hold you back.... go right ahead and join in!!

UptoapointLordCopper · 11/09/2014 17:38

I do like the term "special snowflake". Grin

kickassangel · 11/09/2014 18:05

dh used to work with someone who used to never go home until after his kids had gone to bed. i suspect his wife preferred it that way as well, he was hardly Mr hands on and helpful.

UptoapointLordCopper · 11/09/2014 18:59

I've just ordered Ursula Le Guin's Earthsea quartet. I really don't have space for more books. >

scallopsrgreat · 11/09/2014 19:18

It's called advise needed by a poster called meatpie.

It's the whole I. Work. Don't. You. Know. My wife has the whole day to herself while I. Work. Special dispensation required.

I love special snowflake too Grin. I think I first saw Bof using it.

scallopsrgreat · 11/09/2014 19:21

And it hasn't crossed his mind it might just be a nice thing to do to help out his wife. Surely that's what people do in a relationship.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 11/09/2014 19:22

Oh, thanks for the link, petula, looks lovely.

upto - you and me both!

elephants - yes, I think this is a real issue. I have to admit, STBExDh (did I get that right? Who knows. Anyway, him) doesn't do it, and does listen to me talk out my problems. But I am conscious of how unusual this is, both from past relationships and from talking to friends.

I think there's also an issue of how you get that emotional caretaking. I really notice this with my parents. My mum is like me: she appreciates being able to talk things over at length (and we both know it's an annoying habit). But, because she knows she does this, she will choose a time and ask if she can talk through a problem - she presents her issue, whether it's to do with work or her worries about my brothers or whatever, and she explains it.

My dad thinks he doesn't talk much, but actually, what he does is to interrupt, because when he hears any discussion that has to do with emotional issues, he sees that as an opportunity to turn the conversation towards whatever he is thinking/feeling. In his mind, this obviously doesn't register as time dedicated to his own 'emotional caretaking', so he still manages to believe he doesn't demand support in the way she does, while obviously blocking her efforts to talk through whatever it is she's talking about.

I have a few friends whose relationships seem to have a similar dynamic, and it is quite odd. I'm guessing it has to do with how we're socialized, but I can't trace it back to anything specific.

scallopsrgreat · 11/09/2014 19:44

Just read your posts on that thread Annie and Penguins. Yes. Just what I want to say. I'll put the kids to bed and add my two penneth.

I think men are very much conditioned to expect emotional caretaking from women, Elephants. I had a boyfriend who expected me to support him at all times in public even in just general conversations I wasn't supposed to go against him. That worked well Hmm.

I also recognise what LRD is saying and the whole providing solutions to your problems whether you ask for that or not (which drives me round the fucking twist).

Also men who refer to women as high maintenance are usually the high maintenance ones. There emotional wellbeing had to be first and foremost. I think the whole positioning of women as requiring emotional crutches and so much love and care is actually projection.

Hope that makes sense! I'm on my phone and typing fast!

AnnieLobeseder · 11/09/2014 22:38

I've just found a random message in my FB PM box from some chappie named Jason.

"God extreme feminists like you are the worst. You can't take any criticism and if someone has a different view/opinion than you, you go ballistic."

I have no idea what he's on about, but it looks like I have annoyed someone with my internet feministing. Marvellous!

AnnieLobeseder · 11/09/2014 22:44

Looking back over my activity log, I haven't even said anything feminist on FB links over the past few days. Confused

scallopsrgreat · 11/09/2014 23:23

That sounds creepy Annie and unsettling. Which is of course what these men want. You are in his space remember. How dare you have an opinion!

AnnieLobeseder · 11/09/2014 23:30

I don't even know which space I was in! But I don't find it creepy, just pleased that I'm ruffling feathers. At least it wasn't a threat. Sad that that's some kind of happy benchmark.

PetulaGordino · 12/09/2014 08:14

annie it might be something you've said previously that has been shared more widely as part of something else iyswim. and he simply had to put you right, but has inadvertently justified what you've said because you've pissed off someone like him

PetulaGordino · 12/09/2014 08:17

sir donald sinden has died, which is very sad i'm sure (i am not very cultured and didn't know who he was). and the today programme saw fit to use a quote of his that said that the best advice sir john gielgud had given him re playing king lear was to "pick a lightweight cordelia". because after hours of being on the stage, the final scenes involve lear carrying cordelia's dead body and the last thing you want is to "heft a ten-stone woman" when you're tired

am i being over-sensitive to think this is a bit off? i mean, i'm sure it is difficult to carry an adult after hours of gruelling physical acting so i don't dispute his reasoning, but did the bbc have to use THAT quote with THAT wording?

PetulaGordino · 12/09/2014 08:19

i suppose to invert it, a woman playing cordelia should make sure she chooses a king lear who is physically fit and strong enough to carry her onstage after hours of gruelling physical acting

StormyBrid · 12/09/2014 08:26

Hm. The quote makes a reasonable point, but it's implying that ten stone is heavy. Which, given that I weigh fifty per cent more than that, is currently making me feel disgustingly huge.

StormyBrid · 12/09/2014 08:28

Hang on, the star actor gets to choose the leading lady based on her weight alone?

PetulaGordino · 12/09/2014 08:28

exactly - it's the way it's worded. he was an actor fgs, was there not some other recording of him somewhere that wasn't about a woman's weight?

PetulaGordino · 12/09/2014 08:29

x-post - i know. such bollocks

BertieBotts · 12/09/2014 08:41

Apologies in advance to any dog lovers (and I love animals). But this Manchester Dog's Home fire coverage is really baffling me. It's so brilliant that everybody is rallying round etc, £250,000 + raised already (after a target of £5000). Lots of anger (and violent threats Hmm) aimed at the perpetrator.

But there was that coverage of refuge closures, and barely 4 digits in donations were made. And there are hundreds, thousands of perpetrators, and who is angry about that?

I know it's the difference between a one off and an ongoing problem, and it's easy to feel shocked and outraged by the former whereas over so much time people run out of energy to care about the latter. But it just feels a bit surreal, like women's lives matter less than dogs.

PetulaGordino · 12/09/2014 08:56

i know bertie - i posted similar on the thread about that in AIBU, but in slightly more couched terms as i'm a coward (and the OP was very inflammatory). cailindana said the same more coherently

it's easier to feel for those poor dogs, than it is to do so for people who often don't conform to the idea of a "perfect" victim. i think people often look for a reason to dismiss another person's suffering, because caring is difficult and ongoing

i think the media has a part to play in this too, in terms of the way it reports about victims (e.g. the woman who was stabbed a few days ago who had "a complicated relationship history" or similar)

AnnieLobeseder · 12/09/2014 09:00

People care universally about animals more than they do humans, Bertie. So it's not exclusive to women. In a series of books I read, there are endless awful things done; murder, torture, rape - to both men and women. No-one minds, it's all part of the story. But there's one scene where a dog was tortured and 90% of the various comments/reviews on the book were outrage about the poor dog. Perhaps it's because on some level we realise that they are completely innocent victims of humanity. Not that women aren't equally innocent victims when it comes to abuse, but I think a lot of people work from the default position that Humans Suck and so are more inclined to feel kindly towards animals than male or female humans.

BertieBotts · 12/09/2014 09:06

That makes sense. I've just seen a thread on the same topic in AIBU as well so have PMed the OP because I couldn't face posting and getting bashed as well. It's not that I don't feel awful for the poor dogs imagining how scared they must have been but seriously? TBH, the only reason that it would have been so deadly is because there are strict fire controls on places that house large amounts of people like hospitals, schools, shopping centres etc, which is why fires killing large amounts of people are much rarer these days but these laws don't apply to places which house a lot of animals.

PetulaGordino · 12/09/2014 09:14

is that so bertie? there was that fire at the royal marsden wasn't there and all the cancer patients got out alive

actually i thought the op of that thread didn't think it through terribly well. it is possible to care about more than one thing, and i don't think animals dying in a fire is the same as slaughtering for food (but i would say that - i'm a meat eater). but she later apologised and people are still bashing