Feminist Pub X: Regulars and new faces welcome, consciousness raising is a possibility.

[CaptChaos]

The old pub now has less than 10 posts to go, so I thought I'd start a new one. The old one can be found here

This is a place for feminist pom pom waving and talking about stuff which might not need a thread for itself.

Fill your boots.

[PuffinsAreFicticious]

This pub filled really quickly! Someone needs to make a new one. It would be a bit narcissistic for me to do 2 in a row!

[PetulaGordino]

would you believe it i just did an SGM "i AM english". not remotely as funny in context, i hasten to add

[kickassangel]

Re: porn. There's a great short TED talk about porn which I would link to but I'm at school so it's blocked.

Can I just make another plea for someone to give me a quick response to my homework? It's this thread here . It no longer someone who teaches Women/Gender studies. There has been such a dearth of responses that we can ask anyone who is in any kind of academic capacity.

Annoyingly, my adviser is one of the people who failed to respond to an email from me. I am wondering how much of a fuss (if any) I should kick up about the treatment of part time students as relying on responses to emails (which not everyone responds to) is a pretty crappy way to get work done, but part time students don't have any other means of being included. Plus the parking is crap.

Maybe I should go over onto the English thread and parade my English credentials? They're good. THEN I can tell them that I left the UK 6 years ago.

[AnnieLobeseder]

Bertie, you speak absolute sense. We're so prudish and closed about discussing sex with teenagers, and certainly about letting them (god forbid), see the sex act, that they only have porn to look to for an education. Back when porn was harder to come by kids just figured it out on their own in that sweet fumbling, but usually mutually respectful way.

But now it's easier to find porn online than to buy a pair of shoes, and so wonder young people are getting more "pornifed". Our generation needs to get over our issues to exposing young people to sex, because they are being exposed to sex - the worst possible examples of it.

Not sure how we would go about exposing them to "good" sex though. Better sex education videos that show a couple (not actually - movie style) having a mutually respectful sexual encounter? Parents would freak out!!

[PetulaGordino]

what, all her husbands doctortwo??

[DoctorTwo]

Fascinating, watching the privileged mind in action; watching someone think about something they have NEVER thought about before, and their instinct being to go for it being, somehow, all ok and fair really.

Thanks for that vazzie, you reminded me that I had this with DS. He pointed to an article about black students at Ivy League colleges and their #myharvard experiences. I told him to check his privilege, his come back of "they are privileged, they're rich and at great unis" was met with a withering glare and "yes, but you have something they'll never have. You're a white male, the world is set up for the likes of us."

Also interesting how worried and anxious I feel now about how I made him do that, and what effect this will have on his attitude to me.

If he's anything like a decent human he'll know to show respect.

Just had a wonderful conversation with a woman whilst we were both selecting beer in the supermarket. Like me she likes craft ale and loves the surprised looks her husbands give her when she orders a pint in the pub. :o She recommended a beer to me, Bateman's Hazelnut Brownie, which I had previously discounted because the only chocolate beer I've tried was awful. I bought a bottle to drink tonight, I'll let you know if it's any good. :) As she and I like many of the same beers I fully expect it to be good.

[PetulaGordino]

i apparently hate all english people now. because i don't agree that being english means that you are part of an oppressed minority

[PetulaGordino]

here vezzie

i don't think i adequately addressed the point about women being in less of a position to seek out and indulge interests

[ifyourehoppyandyouknowit]

vezzie I just imagine a fat Nigel Farage.

[vezzie]

what is the passion thread?

[UptoapointLordCopper]

Petula I saw you on the passion thread. That's an interesting thread.

Was talking to DC about "alphas" and about the link someone gave about there being some wild exaggeration about alpha male wolves. Though had to find a polite word for arseholes at the last moment ...

My niece told my that gangnam style is way way way passe. It's all about, um, something else, these days. Can't remember what.

[vezzie]

ha ha ha ha ha I love "blackface style"!

I always imagine people posting in this style to have flobbly jowls and a pompous expression like Harold Bishop. I imagine them using words like "preposterous!" which is a. a great one for flobbling the jowls if they are that way inclined, and b. a word used by comfortable middle classes who, deep down, whatever the gloss they put on it, think that people who have problems have probably brought them on themselves, and use words like this as an intimidatory way of putting down a point without having to go through the tedious business of arguing it.

[ifyourehoppyandyouknowit]

I do love the anti-politcal correctness brigade, as is it's your god given human right to act like a knob and not be called on it.

[PetulaGordino]

the proud to be english one (i'm not a very good patriot apparently)

it hasn't come anywhere near yet - i just saw a little hint

[PetulaGordino]

golly i'm in danger of getting myself into a blackface-style argument where i'm blamed for the rotherham abuse because i am pro political correctness

[BertieBotts]

About that article, not exactly related but I was thinking about how to word a conversation about porn given that it's going to have to happen some day. I wondered if perhaps we should be more open about letting children have access to or not shielding them from sexually explicit material if the sexual activity it shows is respectful/healthy rather than the extreme violent imagery of porn.

I was thinking of writing a blog post so perhaps I will expand a bit on this but I just thought - imagine you're a 12-14 year old. You know that sex is when the man puts his penis into the woman's vagina. You've seen the little cartoon diagram that you had in sex education lessons, but you know that's not how people work, because who thinks that really. Obviously it's not a sterile cartoon kind of thing. You're getting more curious about it, perhaps getting interested in the idea of doing it one day and you want to find out how it works. So of course - the first thing you do is google porn. (If you're feeling brave you can try this out for yourself in a private browsing window).

Imagine seeing that - the kind of sites which come up when you type in "free porn" "sex video" that kind of thing - as your FIRST introduction to sex. Boys thinking "WTF, is it supposed to be that big, how do I move that fast, this must be what women like because she's really enjoying it." Being fed this porn image of what men do in sex, which is nothing to do with any kind of reality. There is no foreplay in porn. Perhaps some oral sex or masturbation but even that is a spectacle, no idea of how to warm up to something.

I know that porn isn't intended to be an instructional video, but nevertheless this is what it probably is serving as for teenagers over the last 10-15 years or so, and continuing.

Imagine if we allowed children of age 5 years to drive real cars after their sole experience of cars being a crazy coupe they had when they were 2.

I don't think that we can expect teenagers to magically know the difference between porn and sex. You can find a how-to on almost anything, it's their world. They don't know that the idea is to find out together and try different things (like, kissing!) and see what it's like and then perhaps take that strand further if it feels good. They think the idea is to try everything, jump right in at the deep end, as extreme as possible and see what it's like. There's no mystery, suspense or discovery because they have already seen the video of 153 things you can insert into an anus and think that's what sexual experimentation is about. It's not!

[PetulaGordino]

i'm on another thread at the moment about the WI. i have thought about joining my local one, but i'm put off by the fact that they recently had a burlesque night to raise money for the local women's refuge. do you think i'm overthinking it to find this problematic? obviously it's a cause i completely support, but... burlesque, really??

i could probably get past that and still join, presumably it's not obligatory to support every activity and still raise money for the good cause

[UptoapointLordCopper]

I have met men around 40-50 who get it and who don't. So probably not the age thing. One of them has a partner who is an MNer. I wonder if she comes on here.

That relationship thread is depressing. Though I think the LTB advice is fairly unanimous.

I'm also vaguely looking at the Biff and Chip thread. But now that DS2 is on proper books teacher still wants me to hear him read. What do I do? This morning I opened a page at random and he read it to me. What does that prove? And DS1 went and got a graphic novel. How do you read those?? When can we just leave them alone? >

[PetulaGordino]

no, just an entitled nitwit thing

[vezzie]

Oh I forgot - there was a man on the table last night who is around 48 I think who looked very embarrassed and said "It is really shocking that they have never given it to a woman". So I guess it's not an age thing

[vezzie]

Petula - long ago, before time began (whirling mists over craggy landscapes, sounds of uilleann pipes) I was inclined to oppose the existence of a FWR section on mn - because I thought the correct answer to 97.456056% of the OPs on "relationships" was basically a kind, nuanced articulation of "get some feminism". I was afraid that creating a specific topic was sort of making feminism a hobbyist niche interest, instead of a more general and universally available tool for everyone on mumsnet. Now I think I was wrong.

Erm, he made a joke like "quite right too" or something. Then "I am being funny, enjoying the irony" and the other man said, "I'd leave it there if I were you."

Background information: "I'd leave it there" man is, I think, 36.
The "ha ha quite right too" man is, I think, 44.

Is that a good sign? Does this 8 year age difference mark a progression of attitudes?

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