Any appetite for further discussion on 'trans-feminism'?

[CrewElla]

I made the mistake this morning of reading the comments on an article on the Guardian website re Kellie Maloney being 'outed' in the tabloids which led to me googling trans-feminism and coming across this article from the New Yorker: www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/08/04/woman-2

I haven't considered myself radical in the past and, at times, even (naively) said I had no need of feminism. Reading the New Yorker article I felt they so missed the point and tried to marginalise a view (woman have a need for spaces free from penises, whether the penis belongs to a man or a transwoman) that I don't think is that radical.

Am I being naive? Does anyone have the time/interest to read the article and share their views on it?

Something that bothers me about relationship-related partner-of-transperson stuff - misgendering is classed as abusive. So if a woman's husband tells her to use female pronouns etc and she slips up, she's an abuser. Why hasn't this been questioned more?

The very use of the word 'transphobia' is a sleight of hand.

I don't hate radical transactivists (never met one, don't read the on-line barneys), I just fundamentally disagree with their views on gender.

Is it considered transphobic if the partner of someone who transitions doesn't wish to be with them anymore? So if you married a man, who then transitioned, and you no longer found him sexually attractive is that abusive or transphobic?

Urgh.

along those lines, what is the epxectation for children? Are they meant to ignore years of calling someone dad and now use mom? Are they being abusive if they forget or don;t WANT to start calling someone by a different name?

Probably homophobic as you are now supposed to be a lesbian

I'm not sure moving from dad to mum is misgendering though? Surely mum is a title (like a job title). Just because dad is now a women, he isn't necessarily mum.

This stuff makes my head hurt.

I've read of several female partners of transwomen being made to feel selfish and uncaring for even being slightly uncomfortable with their male partner's transition. A lot of them are pressured into sexual role-play scenarios that they find deeply unsettling. Can you imagine men being expected to accept that their wife/girlfriend is becoming a man and they are now in a gay relationship, having gay sex?

Really sorry,wrong thread!

They hate her, if anything, more than they have ever hated anyone else they have labelled TERF.

It seems as if being accused of being intolerant is the worst thing that can be said - or at least on MN. You know what? It isn't. No one should be bullied out of their views because they are accused of being intolerant.

I'm intolerant of a lot of things - murder, rape, mugging, stealing, bullying, and being labelled intolerant because I don't accept that men dressed up as women but who have penises and call themselves women are women. They are not.

I could insist my dog was an elephant. But calling my dog an elephant won't make it one.

Has the world gone completely mad?

It's hardly a useful concept for social justice anyway. I don't really want to be tolerated. I want to be seen as a person and I want my opinions and beliefs to be respected. I want difference to be seen and acknowledged. I want common ground to be welcomed.
It's like there's this urge to invisiblise all difference so we're back to 'I don't see colour - we treat everyone the same' and 'shh don't point out she's gay - she can't help it'.

Has the world gone completely mad?

Some of the world is so drunk on male entitlement that they truly believe they get to re-order everything. A lot of the rest of the world just haven't thought very hard about the consequences of letting that happen.

The short answer Grimble may well be yes

Something that bothers me about relationship-related partner-of-transperson stuff - misgendering is classed as abusive. So if a woman's husband tells her to use female pronouns etc and she slips up, she's an abuser. Why hasn't this been questioned more?

Because people who self-identify as open-minded are too busy getting misty-eyed about how "brave" the dude is for transitioning to spare any thoughts for the women whose lives have been blown to smithereens. It is something that naefearty and others have blogged about though (naefearty absent-mindedly referred to her husband as "he" in a joint counselling session and was told by the counsellor that she was an abuser).

"Misgendering is abusive" fucks me right off. The definition of "abusive" is not "I don't like it." It is spectacularly disrespectful towards people who actually have been abused. Stating that misgendering is abusive is just a roundabout way of saying "I'm a fucking fool," as far as I'm concerned.

Thanks, very helpful.

Can I ask how people feel we as society should accommodate trans people in society in general? I am not talking about festivals or specific safe spaces. I mean more in general, toilets, prisons etc. I must declare myself a feminist, not a radical one, and someone who just wants everyone to be best looked after but realising that it is increasing difficult to be 'in favour' of everyone's 'right', because one person's 'rights' sometimes steps on another person's 'rights'!

No idea, but this fucking enrages me.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/toddler-aged-3-assessed-sex-4177248

3

What does a 3 year old understand of sex and gender other than the bullshit they learn in preschool?

That is child abuse plain and simple. Outrageous.

Three years old? Wtf?! Am I horrible for thinking that the child's parents are probably projecting that?

TBF though it didn't say the clinic actually did anything IYSWIM.

They might have said "go away and stop being so silly" for all we know.

Unlikely, but still.

What's wrong with being referred to a clinic? If the parents are worried talking to an expert is the best thing to do. And the overwhelming majority of people of all ages don't go beyond consultation stage.

It is also possible that the 3 year old concerned was genetically ambiguous- the parents would certainly have needed help with that.......

True, but it's the parents who really piss me off in the story and the parents of 468 children that also went last year.