Any appetite for further discussion on 'trans-feminism'?

[CrewElla]

I made the mistake this morning of reading the comments on an article on the Guardian website re Kellie Maloney being 'outed' in the tabloids which led to me googling trans-feminism and coming across this article from the New Yorker: www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/08/04/woman-2

I haven't considered myself radical in the past and, at times, even (naively) said I had no need of feminism. Reading the New Yorker article I felt they so missed the point and tried to marginalise a view (woman have a need for spaces free from penises, whether the penis belongs to a man or a transwoman) that I don't think is that radical.

Am I being naive? Does anyone have the time/interest to read the article and share their views on it?

"True, but it's the parents who really piss me off in the story and the parents of 468 children that also went last year."

Why? What's wrong with asking for advice and help?

If the child was genetically ambiguous, I don't think this would have made the news. These things are happening to children who are not intersex and disregarding every report on the basis that it might be an intersex child is not helpful for children being put through this ridiculous and dangerous process.

"These things are happening to children who are not intersex "

How do you know? There is certainly nothing in the report linked to to suggest that anything is "happening" to children at all.

Ugh! Up until my niece was 3 she would only wear trousers and liked cars and DIY tools and creepy crawlies and dinosaurs. Then she went to nursery and got exposed to 'girly' girls and how girls should perform and she started liking pink and dolls and frilly skirts and fairies. The idea that, if she hadn't been influenced by this, she might need to be corrected by therapy and hormones and surgery is just abhorrent to me. Wind forward a few years and she is finding her own mind and her own way and likes a mixture of 'boys things' and 'girls things'. Why can't they just leave children alone to develop as they may? Are some people so afraid of having a non-conforming child or, horror of horrors, a homosexual child?

The report is about children being referred to doctors for Gender Identity Disorder. That is not a condition that is relevant to intersex children.

How can you say nothing is happening to these children? They are being assessed by doctors because they don't conform with socially imposed roles. In some cases they are being recommended for puberty blockers (from the age of 9) and being assessed for surgery on their genitals and breasts.

Why not just let them develop as they are? I agree with CKD there is an undertone of homophobia and fear of non-conformity.

Interesting thread. I have a few transwomen friends and I have always seen their style of performed of femininity as a kind of anarchic fuck you to the dominant culture- which as we know can be very phobic of feminine men (both in and out of the LGBT communities). I have not considered that performed femininity comes from a wish to take over women's spaces or in fact has much to do with women's actual "lived" lives at all.

Thinking about it though and considering what has been discussed on this thread, although I respect my friends' wishes to be called a women and use the correct pronouns etc. i don't act with them like I do with my bio women friends- in fact I can sometimes end up being very camp and performing femininity myself in a way that is markedly different from the way i would talk to any bio woman. Which I really enjoy once in a while but it is very, very different experience from hanging out with my female friends.

I wonder if the concerns around women's safe spaces comes from the new procedures and hormones etc. i.e transwomen are much more likely to "pass" and so are abandoning the old school niche subcultures of being obviously "trannies" (I am using that term to describe something that - to me - is quite a particular anarchical subculture type presentation of gender, not to be offensive so I hope it is taken that way- apologies if it is clumsy)

The "lived experience" part of being female has never been something that I have felt is vulnerable to being erased before and I have ALWAYS seen my trans friends as allies.

Maybe this is a generational/age thing? or maybe its an ignorance/ haven't thought it through thing?

O maybe its a hanging out on the queer scene v meeting trans women who live and think differently and much more politically aggressively to my friends thing?

Aside from my dislike of gender roles I think my problem with transgenderism boils down to this -

Women - Men need to stop being in charge of everything and telling us what we can and can't do!

Men - We're not men, we're women! Now stop oppressing us or we'll kill you!

Italian

"Can I ask how people feel we as society should accommodate trans people in society in general? "

Didn't want this question to go unanswered.

Sometimes I feel being up against the political side of things can take away from the normal reality that most people can make most social problems go away, just by being decent and reasonable; not glaring at someone you have recognised as a transwoman browsing the women's rails in a clothes shop, is really not too much of a stretch for most people (sadly, not all, I am not pretending that transphobia does not exist).

Still, as a society, we could provide better arrangements in some cases.

However I personally feel that I have suffered more discomfort and embarrassment by being blatantly ogled by "children" (actually pubescent males) in swimming changing rooms, than I would suffer in the presence of any adult who was observing decent politeness (although I know I don't speak for everyone in this respect).

Sorry, meant to add that I am a bit unsure about that question and would welcome POVs too.

I think that women's space needs to be carefully protected because under patriarchy women are more at risk - certainly more at risk of humiliation etc

However I feel that by requiring that this be enforced you are putting a double standard into effect; are you therefore also reinforcing it?

Answer - in theory - if so you make sure that men's space is also adequately protected, if only for form's sake

And that there are enough personal, individual options for anyone to be able to manage conveniently

yeslove agree that society does not like feminine men but I don't see the "fuck you" element of saying because a man is feminine he is a woman, especially if it involves camp performance of femininity. Surely saying "I'm feminine and I'm a man so fuck you" is more anarchic?

The concerns around safe spaces are not about transwomen who pass. It's about being told by men what to do, as CKD says and also about safety from male violence. This would be more about transwomen who don't pass and the trend towards middle aged hetrosexual men claiming to be women regardless of whether they have taken any hormones, had surgery etc.

"The concerns around safe spaces are [...] about being told by men what to do"

Yes, Flora, this is it.

I think people like Italian, and others (and me) are imagining some cruel scenario where a transperson with a full bladder is being turned away repeatedly from anywhere to use a lavatory, and is humiliated to the point where they feel unable to leave the house, or something like that.

That spectre - yes it is a horrible thing to imagine - is being used by men - not transpeople, just common or garden men - as a way to boss women about in terms of having control over their own spaces.

It also doesn't address men's attitudes or violence which makes this an issue for men and transwomen in the first place. Just palms the problem off to women.

florafox Im not sure what I mean, I will think about it. I think that- certainly from my point of view my friends were presenting as transwomen- which was distinct from being a woman- the identity was specifically about being a transwoman- if that makes sense, which felt like an anarchic subculture- not a less "out" way of being a feminine man.

I think that the new treatments which are offered earlier and are more effective in helping MtF to pass are part of the issue here. I think that they have offered transwomen a confidence to begin to colonise women-only spaces which perhaps wasn't there before or wouldn't have been taken as seriously as a threat if it was in the past.

I think the middle aged heterosexual man in women only spaces is concerning but i think that the reason why we are talking about it is because transwomen have been able to leave a subculture that was about trans and are agitating to be assimilated in mainstream culture which is about women. The middle aged heterosexual man is just exploiting a loophole/ new opportunity that wasn't there before.

I think that is quite a big shift and is linked to new treatment/medicine/ early interventions.

I also wonder whether this was where Kim might have been coming from when she was asking about HCP's appearances and whether they passed or not at the beginning of the thread.

Am I being really dim but can I ask why lots of/any 'middle aged heterosexual man' want to be identified as women? Is it to have access to women for nefarious purposes (sorry maybe badly worded)? Surly access to women does not require men to pretend to be them. Or is it a sexual thing, I can't remember the word and searching for it on line is going to get me onto sites I don't want to visit! Already seen one for 'living dolls'!!

What, in your opinions is diving this? Is it that so many taboos have been broken down that some men are looking for just something different??

No offence meant to anyone.

And no worries if no one replies.

And yes, vezzie I was thinking of things like trans people in prison, where would they be safer, where would others be safer, a huge ethical dilemma I am sure.

Italien I used the "middle aged heterosexual man thing" as an example of what is possible not necessary what is probable.

When we are talking about whether transwomen need to identify themselves as such if they are a HCP doing smear tests or whatever and society/law etc. is leaning towards saying no she doesn't as her right to confidentiality trumps a patient's right to know- then the argument might turn to what makes someone a transperson who is afforded these protections. Someone undergoing hormone treatment? someone post surgery?

The end point of this argument is that if checks and balances are not put in place then anyone can call themselves a women and have a protected right to women only places. We are using the example of a middle aged heterosexual man as the epitomy of this. Someone who is not transgendered or undergoing treatment but someone who is basically exploiting a loop-hole to have access to previously protected spaces.

Im not sure it matters whether it would actually happen or not- its just a way of naming and navigating the issues.

Thanks yeslove that is helpful. I really did not know if it was a feature of society. So many things happen and I am sometimes baffled.

Making total sense Buffy I still have no idea what to make of it all though.

I wouldn't confine it to just middle-aged men but I think a lot of the heterosexual men defining themselves as women are acting out a sexual fetish but, not only that, a sexual fetish that it sanctioned by society. Reading some of the experiences of the partners of these men they enjoy dressing up as sexualised young women, the enjoy the performance. I do think there are men who get a sexual thrill from entering women's toilets as 'one of the girls' or forcing the employees in lingerie shops to measure them for bras. I think a lot of these men enjoy the discomfort they cause. Read this about a be-penised, attracted-to-women transwoman who thought they could change in front of showering schoolgirls and tell me it's not a sex-fetish -

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2012/10/07/olympia-wa-school-officials-state-gender-identity-provision-overrides-title-ix-equality-for-girls-swim-teams/

I also think the men's rights movement is part of it. There are men who are very angry about not having access to certain women, women's spaces and women's events. I think these men are delighted at the loophole that states that they are now the oppressed ones and entitled to access lesbians, women's changing rooms, women's conferences, women's sports, women's colleges, women-only scholarships and women-only jobs because they hate women having the power to exclude them and all those things contribute to women's liberation in the world.

The other part is 'special snowflake-ism'. Some men just like being contrary, they like being difficult, they like all the attention being on them. For all the talk of wanting to blend in they love their special status.

CKDexter As i said upthread, I know quite a few transwomen and I don't recognise that kind of anger, interest in accessing women's spaces or events or sexual fetish about invading changing rooms/ toilets etc.

Obviously I know that they are just a few individuals in my world but I know they would be really upset to read your post.

As a feminist I understand the points that have been made on this thread and agree that they are valid and important but also do not want to loose sight of the fact that transgender people can be very vulnerable to violence/depression and have often very difficult lives.

I don't think that transgenderism is a sexual fetish and I think the vast majority of transgender people are just trying to make sense of their lives, get on with their stuff and avoid the prejudice and hatred that is often directed at them.

Actually having read the link in CKDexter's post Buffy I agree with you that its about the law.

Framing it like that also makes it feel possible to talk about the issues in a critical way that feels less harmful.

I think the vast majority of transgender people are just trying to make sense of their lives, get on with their stuff and avoid the prejudice and hatred that is often directed at them.

Reasonable transgender people are not the ones making the most noise at the moment. The most vocal transactivists around at the moment are the ones who are shaming and publicly harassing lesbians for saying they do not want to have sex with transwomen, issuing death threats against feminists, telling women to "suck my formaldehyde pickled balls," accusing people who reject the statement "a penis is a female organ" of violence and transphobia, etc.

There is now some pushback against this bullshit on the part of reasonable, rational transpeople but the ones who are brave enough to speak out are, as far as I can tell, in the minority.

I don't think anyone has a problem with transgender people just wanting to live their lives, and that's not what is driving the current preoccupation with the trans issue among radical feminists. It's the constant online abuse, the no-platforming, the slurs, the threats of rape and violence coming from the self-appointed leaders of the trans community that's the issue.

And transgenderism is, in some instances, a sexual fetish. Autogynephilia is a fetish.

Well, I guess feminists are making up all the death and rape threats they are getting from transwomen then. Maybe I imagined transwomen teaming up with men's rights hate groups to get feminist conferences closed down? Maybe I imagined transwomen organising protests at events commemorating the deaths of murdered women? Maybe I imagined transwomen trying to get women's shelters and rape-crisis centres closed down? Maybe I imagined transwomen getting feminists banned from social media or adding their names to BlockBot? Maybe all the incidents of transwomen sexually abusing or murdering women are just 'isolated incidents'?

In America at least most of the transwomen victims of violence are sexually attracted to men, low-income, transwomen of colour, often involved in prostitution. The white, sexually attracted to women, CEO/tech-industry/ex-military transwomen then use these statistics to claim they are oppressed. It isn't women who are killing and beating up transwomen so why do our protections and rights need to be eroded to make them feel better?

I don't really know how to respond to that- its just so depressing. One of my lesbian friends told me that some of the FtM transgender folk that she knocks about with have been having some problems with some lesbian groups too, having to deal with personal attacks, anger, frustration and so on. My feminist battles are not with the transgender community- I want to understand and think the issues through but not to cause harm to or receive abuse from either side.

My feminist battles are not with the transgender community

I don't think you get a choice in the matter, TBH.