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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Any appetite for further discussion on 'trans-feminism'?

502 replies

CrewElla · 24/08/2014 09:06

I made the mistake this morning of reading the comments on an article on the Guardian website re Kellie Maloney being 'outed' in the tabloids which led to me googling trans-feminism and coming across this article from the New Yorker: www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/08/04/woman-2

I haven't considered myself radical in the past and, at times, even (naively) said I had no need of feminism. Reading the New Yorker article I felt they so missed the point and tried to marginalise a view (woman have a need for spaces free from penises, whether the penis belongs to a man or a transwoman) that I don't think is that radical.

Am I being naive? Does anyone have the time/interest to read the article and share their views on it?

OP posts:
GarlicAugustus · 03/09/2014 14:07

I used to play tea parties! It's worth noting, though, that [a] this was the 1950s, and [b] tea parties were not a feature of everyday life. Therefore, I deduce that I played tea parties because somebody always bought a dolls' tea set and there wasn't much else you could play with it. Lego tea cups would have been a lot more useful. The classic doll toys that were used until they broke were not the house (lovingly hand-made though it was,) the kitchen or the picnic set. They were the shop and the garage. I only had one friend, Ellen, whose toys and bedroom were frilly & girly. I recall being stupefied on my first visit, then finding that other girls who'd visited were equally bemused by her stereotypically girlish environment. I envied her, but even then knew I wouldn't want to actually live with all those frills & bows. I told my mum it was like a fancy cake Grin

Still loving these posts, especially yours, vezzie. You're doing a brilliant job of saying what I was thinking, only better!

Tentatively, I'd develop it by saying that the person who'd had a shit day used to drink in that bar regularly, using their expense account. Yes, they were also deeply unhappy about who they were and the restrictions society placed on them. But they're used to being there and getting served promptly, like the others. - Very cool extension, Buffy. This happens to me with being poor. I have been borderline destitute and vulnerable for many years now but, apparently, still convey the impression of entitlement that came with my education and overpaid career. I'm told this is why I can't get as much help as I need. There's not much I can do about it, though: faking it will seem fake. The shadow of privilege, it seems, lingers long after the real thing has gone.

I've come here with a home-baked psych theory. My theory is about fear of the feminine. It's very usual, when we're afraid of something, to attempt to own it and, at the same time, to parody it. It's a coping tool. Think of the Allies performing Hitler-esque song & dance routines, complete with goosestepping (and the Germans performing Haw-Haw skits on the English.) Sexual abuse survivors often go through a phase of exaggerated promiscuity, trying to reclaim their sexuality by over-performing. We all loved Harry Enfield's Loadsamoney character in the 80s, as the banking industry tightened its grip on our lives.

If I imagine a privileged male who, for some reason, feels very oppressed by cultural expectations of boys & men, I imagine he'd try quite hard to 'perform masculinity' in order to gain approval. Perhaps he is an abused boy, or perhaps he simply isn't built in the rugby-club mould: in any case, he feels forced to be what he is not. He perceives the punishment for his 'manly failures' as severe, so must suppress his delicacy/vulnerability as hard as possible. Meanwhile, of course, half the population apparently escapes these pressures; observing this, our unhappy man labels the hated, feared and buried part of himself 'female'. His abusers might even do this for him, with their admonishments for being like a girl.

What we most fear in ourselves is what we loathe in others. Like the sexual exploitation survivor, we often unconsciously act it out in high relief. Without intense examination, though, parodic ownership doesn't remove the negative associations. The actor continues to hate the part s/he acts, even developing rape fantasies with their suppressed 'self' as victim.

This is so half-baked I'm not even sure whether to post it, but I've nowhere else to put it Blush I also want to clarify I've got no intention of belittling gender dysphoria - I hope any readers will understand I'm just exploring a thought, not claiming to know more about it than its sufferers.

vezzie · 03/09/2014 21:44

That's really interesting Garlic

Also - Andie - thanks for the heads up on the Judith Butler thread - I haven't been in a position to watch videos - but I will get to it

Just putting this here while I think about it

"In order to “authentically” and successfully embody post-genre pop, an artist must be seen as having transcended traditional identity-based characteristics or stereotypes. But, such transcendence isn’t equally available to everyone: in order for some to appear to have progressed past the limitations of identity, there have to be spectacular examples of people who haven’t progressed, who remain regressively stuck in obsolete ways of life. This is an example of what political theorist Lester Spence calls neoliberalism’s logic of “exception.” In general, neoliberalism presents itself as an upgrade on outmoded modernity: post-identity bills itself as the transcendence of identity politics and its much-debated limitations. However, in order to represent something as adapted or potentially adaptable to contemporary life, there must be obvious, indeed, spectacular examples of non-adaptable phenomena–that is, of the “exception” to neoliberal reform. And it is always the least privileged members of society who occupy this role. For example, though relatively privileged people of color can go to Harvard, be the Secretary of State, or the highest-earning artist in the entire entertainment industry, those with less (economic, gender, sexual, even racial/ethnic) privilege are subject to more intense surveillance, poverty, and disease than ever before."

It's from here

www.its-her-factory.com/2014/08/shake-it-off-the-post-identity-politics-of-post-genre-pop/

Calling this bit out while I ponder

post-identity bills itself as the transcendence of identity politics and its much-debated limitations. However, in order to represent something as adapted or potentially adaptable to contemporary life, there must be obvious, indeed, spectacular examples of non-adaptable phenomena–that is, of the “exception” to neoliberal reform. And it is always the least privileged members of society who occupy this role.

vezzie · 03/09/2014 21:51

Buffy, I like your extension of the bar analogy.

What about this extension:

The people in the bar who are on expense accounts, drinking freely for years, have credit cards which entitle them to fine wines only. This was because at the time the accounts were set up, the accounting software did not enable them to have access to a full variety of drinks, so they chose the most rare and expensive. your drink token only allows you to buy one kind of bog standard bitter.

This person who has arrived and has had a shit day has often drunk freely of the fine wines, in a past life. But (s)he actually happens to prefer beer, and resents that (s)he hardly ever gets to drink it (only in private while feeling ashamed at enjoying such a declassé drink). the fact that your token entitles you (not through choice, to a miserable, limited amount of) beer is one of the reasons that (s)he considers you very fortunate and considers themself to be more entitled to your drink than you. (No one has ever asked you if you would like wine, or how much)

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 03/09/2014 22:00

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

vezzie · 03/09/2014 22:09

yup

vezzie · 03/09/2014 22:16

It's-Her-Factory (which that is from) is a great blog about music (and, often, race, and, often, gender)

Italiangreyhound · 04/09/2014 01:58

Can I ask a very simple question, please?

Because I am very confused to some degree!

I have been a feminist a long time but as an evangelical Christian I would probably not be seen as very radical at all!

I avoided the whole gay rights issues for years but when the equal marriage bill came out and some Christians were very anti gay marriage I was forced to look into the issue and find myself now very supportive of equal marriage. Along with the support for equal marriage I felt a strong compassion for those who claimed to be trapped in the wrong gender bodies. It seemed to me very sad that they should live their lives forced to conform in some ways, hate their bodies, that they felt biology had not really prepared them for etc (my words).

Now, I do not know what to think to some degree! I had seen trans people as very much ill treated by society but am now very shocked to see pictures of trans people threatening radical feminists with knives (via photos and words etc) on line and attempting to gain access to places very much in a way that seems to set out to cause upset.

And my question, I had not forgotten it,.... is... I am sure there are a lot of people out there, I am guessing a lot of straight men, amongst others, who would be very anti trans people and very 'misgendering' of them. Why are radical feminists coming in for all this flack from some areas of the trans gender community. Is it just that they are the easy target?

Sorry if this is a very dopey question.

It is very much an eye opener here, I have read the whole thread and followed most links and really am seeing things from a different perspective. I would have said I was very happy to share changing or bathroom facilities with trans women and I am now wondering how I can tread a compassionate pathway through what is a much more complex issue.

I only mention my religion here to explain why, to some degree, I have not engaged with these issues before! Because in some areas of the church these are either not issues that are discussed or they are very new (they are of course not new at all) but really people congregate around others who share their views so people can be quite conservative or liberal but end up listening to and talking with people who share their views.

Mumsnet is great as it enables people to hear a different view without going very far off the beaten track!

No desire to derail and feel free to ignore my question if you wish. Thanks. Grin

gincamparidryvermouth · 04/09/2014 06:50

I just woke up, but in my view the answer to your question is twofold, Italian. First of all, radical feminists are women, and transwomen want something from women that they don;t want from men, namely inclusion.

And second, I think trans people avoid confronting men for the same reason that women generally avoid confronting men: because of the possibility of physical violence.

Radical feminists do not hit or kill trans people. Men do. But, as you say, it's radfems coming under fire.

JustTheRightBullets · 04/09/2014 07:00

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WhatWitchcraftIsThis · 04/09/2014 09:07

italian, I think men (even those who believe they are women) will understand male privilege very well and know that men will never accept them as women. They are however used to women rolling over and literally letting them do as they like. So when radfems refuse to roll and take it this is especially galling. These men are reacting the way most men do and using violence and threats to get their point across even though their behaviour is showing how very male they are. Women don't issue rape and death threats when shit does not go their way.

I don't think it is a problem to feel sympathy for the average person who sees them selves as trans and also not believe they are the sex they say they are. I do feel bad for them but I also think that people like them will be helped by ripping down strict gender norms in the future. I think accepting their beliefs like they insist we do will lead to more young people forced to be "trans gender" rather than just who they are and forced to see their body as betraying them.

It is ironic because I see the radical feminist ideology as the most kind one to trans people. It says that who you are and what you are and how you act out your "gender" is fine. Wear a dress if you are a man, wear a beard if you are a woman. There is nothing wrong with that. You are still a man in a dress and you can still be a heterosexual man in a dress. Why not? There is nothing wrong with being a heterosexual man in a dress.

There is something really wrong with telling other women that because you are a heterosexual man in a dress you must be a woman and allowed access to their safe places.

WhatWitchcraftIsThis · 04/09/2014 09:08

*and that you are also a lesbian and they must have sex with you and your lesbian penis

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 04/09/2014 12:23

Italiangreyhound, that is a very good question indeed.
My view is that radical feminists tend to come in for more flack than, say, pro-porn, pro-prostitution, pro-stripclub feminists because they challenge the dominant view that women are objects, whereas the pro-sex-industry ones don't. (similar with other issues which divide feminists)

So mainstream feminists feel uncomfortable supporting radical feminists, male rights activists are more driven to challenge radical feminists, make us targets for misogynistic abuse etc.

It's a pretext.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 04/09/2014 12:34

I've seen several evangelical christians talk about trans issues in terms of embodiment theology. I don't really understand that, as my understanding of it is that a mind-body connection is important, and that we all have bodies and take up space in the world within them. And that our bodies are real and material and have physical requirements.
To me, the idea that I am somehow in the wrong body goes against this.
But I realise these things can get complicated.
To me, trans explanations of gender identity seem closer to complimentarian ideas around 'female' characteristics vs 'male' ones which I really don't agree with.
I'm really glad that most churches have engaged with issues relevant to lesbian and gay parishioners. It is really important to me that people shouldn't have to reject their faith in order to live an authentic life.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 04/09/2014 12:34

I realise there's an obvious parallel with trans issues but for me the authenticity of claiming an identity with the opposite sex to your own, but for me it comes back to ideas about 'born in the wrong body' seeming to contradict my worldview. 'born in a society with the wrong ideas about what my body means' maybe.

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit · 04/09/2014 13:12

Sort of in the same boat as Italian (minus the religion) in that this is an issue I'm just getting to know/form an opinion on.

I'm having a difficult time balancing my feelings for the abuse and unpleasant experiences trans people must face all the time, with feeling like that still doesn't make it OK to direct their anger at radical feminists and women in general. I find the invasion of women's spaces and the demands being placed on women's resources and time have a distinct whiff of misogyny and I feel very uncomfortable with trans women claiming that they are women. But then I feel like I'm perhaps being intolerant (am a people pleaser). I don't really know what to think most of the time. I find myself agreeing with cotes posts on trans thread quite regularly.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 04/09/2014 13:29

I find when I look at what folk are asked to do in the name of tolerance (lesbians consider partners with penises etc), I wonder how much of this is about actual tolerance.
I mean, nobody sensible would tolerate that, surely? It's not like there are loads and loads of trans people demanding that - it's a tiny minority allowed to dominate discourse, supported by earnest pro-pornstitution 20-something women who really hate feminism, and now 'hey I'm a nice guy' liberal men who like telling women off.

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit · 04/09/2014 13:38

I think like most people though I have a very gut reaction to being called intolerant or transphobic. I don't think I am either of those things, but at the same time I'm not willing to make the concessions being asked of me in the name of accepting transwomen into women's spaces.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 04/09/2014 13:50

I think those sorts of tactics have worked very well with women's sector organisations, events and clubs, and even sporting organisations as well as on an individual level. It trades on work lesbian and gay people have done for decades and completely upturns what we worked for, which makes me very sad.

WhatWitchcraftIsThis · 04/09/2014 13:52

ifyouarehoppy

Do you think transactivist are worrying about your very real life and the abuse and the abuse and unpleasant experience women experience all the time when they tell you that their definition of what is a woman is the only one that counts?

Your actual experience of being and living as a woman does not make you an expert, theirs does though. Confused and you are a bigot if you don't accept their view. They are not bigots for imposing their view and telling you however what a woman really is.

They aren't sitting their thinking maybe that by actually deciding that a woman is this narrow little stereotype that they might be bigoted. And that they might be bigots. NO ONE is calling them bigots. Why is no one calling them out on it? Why are we allowing ourselves to be gaslighted in to what a woman is?

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit · 04/09/2014 14:03

No which, I don't think they are and I think them not being challenged comes down to fear of being called unaccepting or inolerant and fear of confronting men. And I know that not wanting to be labelled is my own issue and there's a wealth of stuff I need to explore around why I feel the need to non confrontational and universally accepting. But that's a bit of a tangent.

The more I read the more I am finding myself feeling as you describe. As I said though, I've not been looking at this for very long and feel like I'm only touching the surface of shaping my own feminism in general.

Hakluyt · 04/09/2014 14:15

And I wasn't being obnoxious. I am aware that the Mumsnet received wisdom is that being very bright is just as much a special need as having learning difficulties, and should be treated similarly. I just don't agree. I think that for very bright children a hands off, student guided approach is the best way- obviously with a pedagogic overview. I don't think that's short changing the very bright- it's facilitating their learning rather than teaching them. And in the competition for resources, the children with learning difficulties should win. Every time.

I am aware that that is a very unpopular view.

WhatWitchcraftIsThis · 04/09/2014 14:19

It feels so unnatural to be told you are on the "wrong side" of tolerant.

The fact that you aren't really (logically) doesn't make it easier.

I can only imagine what would be the response on MN if I said "I told my dh I was really a man now (with a vagina) and AIBU to wonder why won't he start coming out as a gay man to his friends?"

[mind boggled]

But every other "transwoman" thread women fall over themselves to be as tolerant as possible. Tolerance can only be extended to men

BuffyBotRebooted · 04/09/2014 14:19

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WhatWitchcraftIsThis · 04/09/2014 14:22

Rapidly searching thread to see what I had missed Grin

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 04/09/2014 14:28

I totally agree with you btw hakluyt and well done on your stylish delurk.

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