Feminist Pub IX. Newbies and regulars welcome - pop your cognitive dissonance down outside and have a gin.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Right, thought I'd better start a new pub. I warn you, my knowledge of Roman numerals conks out shortly after this one, so either buffy will have to start the next thread, or we'll have to go Arabic.

Everyone is welcome in - if you want to chat, or just jump in with a question/link/gin, please do. Especially if it's too small for a thread or you don't feel up to thread-starting.

The old thread has, at my count, about 9 posts to go, and it was here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2126791-Feminist-Pub-VIII-not-as-prolific-as-the-Swaggerers-but-there-are-cushions-and-consciousness?

We were just chatting about feministy light reading, and will doubtless meander onto other topics shortly.

LRD i think you should cook yourself something delicious, set yourself a nice place at the table and enjoy every mouthful

(i'm not sayign that you don't generally, just that even though you're leaving, you have a right to take up space and time in the communal areas. apologies if i've overstepped or misinterpreted)

No, thanks, petula, I should. He's off for a weekend away anyway, which is quite good really.

He's not being arsey about me moving out, it's just a pain.

it must be very awkward

LRD Bread has a permanent feel to it. Like when they cross America they brought their sourdough culture with them so you know, they were going to settle... The solution: bake cakes. Ephemeral and lovely.

Mmm cakes...ephemeral because they don't last as long as bread

I'm not surprised you're upset Buffy. It's SO strongly ingrained in (most of) us, not to upset people, to do what's expected, not to be the one who stands up and says "ACTUALLY THAT'S NOT FINE." I remember carrying out a very low-risk protest once (boycotting something at work because it supported a political regime I disagreed with) and almost shaking with fright.

I think it does get a bit easier the more you do it though. I think going on things like reclaim the night marches etc have definitely made me less afraid of speaking out in everyday life. Once you've shouted "sexual violence has to stop" in the middle of Piccadilly Circus, everything becomes easier.

Not surprised you're upset either Buffy, GTA5 is insidious.

As a few of you know, my DS was until a couple of months ago at a boarding school and on exeat weekend he went to stay with one of his friend's families, who took him shopping and let him buy GTA5. He knew I had expressly said no when he asked before, but he asked his friend's mum, she said yes, so it was all ok. this isn't actually as awful as it sounds, he has ASD and has some slightly out there ideas about the logic of things

He knows why I don't want the bloody thing in the house, he understands what misogyny is, but he says he won't take his morals from a game. I don't care, I want it out of my house. He's away right now, I'm packing the house up for our impending move, it's been 'lost' to the bin, snapped in half.

Elephants, I don't think taking a stand at work is ever a low risk protest. It's a difficult environment in which to be critical - of anything - without a personal cost

Aw, upto, that's ute about sourdough cultures.

buffy - good for friend A!

That's true vezzie.

Glad it worked out for the best, Buffy :)

I know I mentioned this earlier, but I'd really like to see a list of what "firsts" we're still waiting for women to achieve. Anyone know of one?

Buffy, I'm constantly on a rant about GTA. Loads of my year 7s play it, they all think I'm off my rocker when I start ranting about how awful it is. AND some of my friends who are generally lovely people are perfectly happy to let their sons play it and their daughters watch them. The boys in question were 8 when they were first allowed to play! They most definitely went down in my estimation when they made that decision.

It's amazing how people get really worried about the swearing in things like GTA as it might adversely affect the dcs, but then dismiss sexism and violence as unimportant because their kids won't copy it.

So, swearing has this magic charm which means it sticks to kids like glue, but swearing at women just washes over them?

In another note, the song Rude was being discussed in my camp the other day and all the girls (some are 8) said they didn't like it, partly because it doesn't sound very nice in how it talks about the girlfriend/daughter.

I also wonder about this fear of swearing. My DC hide away and make lists of swear words and I suspect them of looking them up in the dictionary. And of course there's school, the source of innovative swear words. And they giggle at words that sound like swear words. I've told them that if I catch them being disrespectful to anyone, and that includes swearing at people, they will be in deep shit. But you can be pretty disrespectful without swearing, and I think they know that too ...

My DCs are all quite sweary. I posted one of DD2's anti-patriarchy rants here and the only people who thought her language was inappropriate were men. Funny that. I don't fuss it really, I prefer them to argue their case with passion and belief, and if that involves a spot of bad language who am I to stop them? That'd be hypocritical.

DoctorTwo I think I remember that thread (or at least a similar one). Lots of people objecting to the language rather than objecting to the oppression of people. Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

Bloody flies. You swat one and another turns up. How do they get in? Do I have to hermetically seal my house?

are you being all metaphorical there lordcopper?

Maybe.

I think most of the pub regulars were on that thread cheering her on LordC, even joining in admonishing the pearl clutchers. Apparently it wasn't ladylike for her to swear. :o

Haven't been on here for a while and I think I may give up trying to catch up! But I'll just say fuckity fuck fuck.

I don't really get the issue with swearing. I mean, sometimes it is a lazy replacement for actually expressing yourself. But inherently, I don't see the issue.

That said, I don't like Cunt as a swear word because I don't like the implications of labelling someone as a woman's body part as the worst available term of abuse.

Swearing serves as purpose. Most children understand that purpose perfectly well and don't swear outside legitimate swearing contexts. As do most people.

I think the trope that men swear and women are horrified by it is just another ingenious way to keep women out of interesting and useful conversations. Of course, overhearing "damn" isn't actually going to make you faint, but you can't let on to that as you will look brazen and hard faced. So you have been effectively got rid of

Yes. I learned from here why I especially hate it when men apologise for swearing in front of me - it's one of the tools to keep women out - to say that this is a man's world, and we are going to swear, and we will apologise when we swear to remind you that you are here on sufferance and how nice we are to let you hang around. Women are of course delicate flowers who can't handle anything not delicate. Honestly. Have they ever given birth? Oh hang on ...