Feminist Pub IX. Newbies and regulars welcome - pop your cognitive dissonance down outside and have a gin.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Right, thought I'd better start a new pub. I warn you, my knowledge of Roman numerals conks out shortly after this one, so either buffy will have to start the next thread, or we'll have to go Arabic.

Everyone is welcome in - if you want to chat, or just jump in with a question/link/gin, please do. Especially if it's too small for a thread or you don't feel up to thread-starting.

The old thread has, at my count, about 9 posts to go, and it was here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2126791-Feminist-Pub-VIII-not-as-prolific-as-the-Swaggerers-but-there-are-cushions-and-consciousness?

We were just chatting about feministy light reading, and will doubtless meander onto other topics shortly.

Back from shopping trip with DSs. Bought star-shaped thing so you can have star-shaped fried eggs. And water bombs. Plus lots of dull cleaning products ...

LRD What's the unfinished DWJ book? I don't know about it. I only discovered her books after her death.

Re: veg patch - I only grow things that refuse to die on me. Now we have a serious glut of raspberries, some strawberries (second harvest ), blackberries, rocket, chinese chives and spring onions.

On books about women being killed horribly: what do people think about the Girl with the dragon tattoo books? They are pretty graphic, and nasty things happened to women. But then they also make a point of saying it's not acceptable. I like the books.

The Children's Book is tough to read. Again it's reading from a distance and trying not to look too closely IYKWIM. So sad.

Outs I've just finished the Golden Notebook. What do you think about it?

Found you all!

Well, I managed to have an insomnia night so have only had 4 hours sleep. whatever drink will help with that is much appreciated. I have to go to work soon, but by the time I get back you'll all be asleep, so quickly catching up.

I didn't like Wolf Hall - but at the time I was quite ill and drifting into sleep lots and easily confused, so probably not a fair reflection, although I did finish it.

Have just read a book which is compulsory reading for school. Our head of school sets a book each year then we're supposed to use it for promoting worthwhile chats. It is suitable for the age group (11 - 14) and it deals with some real issue - domestic violence, cancer, poverty, Vietnam War, bullying (by children and teachers), even how valuable artwork should be treated (public property or sold to owners).

BUT by the end almost everything comes good. The main character's best friend/girlfriend has cancer is looks like she'll survive (a little ambiguous, so I like that).

The older brothers suddenly stop heading down the path to drunken violent criminals. They weren't 100% heading that way, but they manage to suddenly become pillars of society and the best big brothers ever.

The Dad, who was ALWAYS drunk, abusive, violent, cheating and stealing, even from his kids and letting his kids get the blame. Well, when it looks like one of the kids is going to jail, the Dad suddenly repents, hands over the stolen goods, gets let off by the police as they know he's really sorry, stops going out drinking and ditches his mate who encouraged all this.

HOW do I teach this? How do I deal with DD being taught this book? I want to rant and rave about the success rate of intervention programs and why the older brother returning from Vietnam does not suddenly become a nice guy because his younger brothers make him laugh. And NO WAY would an abusive alcoholic suddenly change like that (he doesn't become all friendly and nice, he is quite surly, but he does stop hitting the family).

Sorry - long, but I needed to vent a bit. Would I look stupid if I send the head of school all the links about how/why domestic violence doesn't just stop etc?

Oh Kickass! That's difficult. Would help at all?

I have no advice, but the book sounds like a load of old bollocks.

In Philip Roth's The Human Stain there were passages and passages about this Vietnam war vet (and lots of his comrade) who could not come back to normal and it was very real and hard. But I guess you can't just let the 11-14yos read that - lots of swearing and sex ... (Also a woman who was abused as a child and could not become "normal". And people who are racially discriminated against who could not become "normal". Life is tough. But I found that book easier to understand than the Golden Notebook, oddly.)

Or you could let them watch First Blood.

Is there any 'the kids talked to someone about what was happening and it got better?'

What a difficult situation Kickass. Can you use the whole thing as an example of narrative coercion? So you're actually doing literary critique and in order to teach that you will have to get the students to research the facts on DV/ alcoholism. Everybody's happy is a pressure of narrative structure rather than fact, etc... It's educational and doesn't require that you teach the lie that is being peddled. I'd also really thank anyone teaching my kids that way of seeing popular culture...

See I think the thing about having American Psycho on my list is because it's appalling. I've had a fantasy for a while that I'll write a book in which a woman goes round killing a load of men, sort of serial killer style, with loads of emotive sexiness around the slashed body etc. She'll do it for some psycho babble reason. And the whole thing would invite the reader to pleasure over the deaths in the way that a lot of crime fiction is about the titillating pleasure of men dying. Because a lot of fiction seems to me to be about Die, Women, Die! and I just thought what I needed to do was something shocking that subverts that. But I actually can't believe that there is anything that I could do that would shock and be so casually man-hating as the endless films and books which invite us to salivate over the deaths of women. American Psycho was on my list to help me think that through.

what outsself says about narrative coercion (i would never have been able to have put it so well myself!). could you ask them what they think might happen to some of these people in real life, what effect their experiences might have on their self-esteem, education/job prospects etc?

outsself your book idea sounds extremely interesting. in addition to the difficulties you've mentioned, you just know that the book wouldn't be taken as satire, it would be seen as evidence of man-hating feminism (regardless of the enormous body of work that evidences woman-hating on a far larger scale), and you would put yourself at enormous personal risk too. not a reason not to do it necessarily!

I saw a film recently (forgotten the name) with Scarlett Johansen as a serial killer targeting men. She is an alien and sort of squidges out their insides, I think for food.

Spoiler alert.

But there is a faceless man making her do it and checking her work, and as she develops emotions she turns vulnerable until she is raped and killed and that's the end. And there are no other women in the film. I found her journey from ruthless seducer and killer to victim a bit disturbing.

That's an interesting idea outs. I suspect if you did it would be used to dismiss you as man-hating...

Outself, that is an interesting project. How will it be subverting, as opposed to just doing the same thing but with men?

Kickass, that is very hard, and I suppose it is really difficult also in the context of not knowing how many of your class may be dealing with issues like this irl. so you have to be so so careful

Can you address it directly with the head of year? We are always reading on mn "why can't they teach red flags in school?" and I think this sounds like a case of teaching lies about red flags, which is worse.

Sorry, totally off topic. I suspect this is what I do in real pubs too

not off-topic at all EE. i know of the film but i haven't seen it, and i wasn't aware of the details, just of the general premise. that is a disturbing ending in particular. if the gender roles had been reversed and a male alien murderer was on the loose, he would probably end up being killed but not raped too. she had to be completely destroyed didn't she

oh. for. fuck's. sake

What the actual fucking fuck is that, Petula?

Blood and sand, that's awful.

i know. relieved that there is outrage and that's had an effect. but seriously, the fact that it was even done in the first place!

Oh God, that is horrible.

btw, marilyn french archive interview was broadcast on woman's hour today

i only heard a snippet of it as i was working, but will listen again later

Ha, good question vezzie, it probably doesn't subvert anything unless I spend a bit more time on thinking it through. The main problem with it as a project, which comes second only to the fact I'd have to go into hiding if it was any kind of success, is that I'm not a writer which is a massive problem really. I'm old school in that I believe in craft not just art, iyswim. I haven't done the craftish, writing leg work.

Feeling quite skeptical about the reporting of that Petula. Ethically, it really shouldn't have contained any images or the images should have pixelated the dresses otherwise they've been very successful in terms of people around the world seeing the product. I say ethically as if it were an out there thing but I mean personally I think it unethical to show the images.

Perhaps if I did do the book it could be some outrageous postmodern performance. I could invent an identity and play the man hating game saying shit about how I love men, some of my best friends are men. And talking about how they can't help their stupid selves, about anything really. Etc. See, this is why I run into problems, I always make everything too complicated to contemplate.

that's a very good point about the reporting ethics

Hello all. You seem to be trying to lose me.

I like the sound of a book that sexualises violence against men in a subversive way. I have not a lot to say about the rest of the book discussions because my taste in books runs to fantasy/supernatural, which does seem to produce some fantastic female characters but there are rarely many other women around, the female lead is surrounded by a massive supporting cast of men

I am sorry to hear you're divorcing LRD but hope your newly single status is a happy change for you. I have moments of contemplating single parenthood again, 50/50 shared care sounds lovely, but if he buggered off and just had eow contact then it's easier to keep dp. I think I'll keep him for a while yet.

Hello everyone, excuse me for butting in .

I'm on my hols atm, have brought Infinite Jest with me to read (it has been sat on my bookcase for some time making me look cool and edgy), anyone else read it? Have been slightly put off by the 1000+ pages and teeny-tiny font.

Oh and mine's a Pina Colada, thanks

Outself, Sara Maitland wrote a great book on becoming a writer, she teaches writing at Lancaster.

Hello zennor. I have a pina colada for you, but never read the book, sorry!

Thanks for kind comments dragon and tewi.

outs - wow, rather you than me writing that, but it would be fascinating. You'd need a strong stomach. I think that's what bothers me so much about AP and similar - some of what men get out of it, is believing it'd absolutely never be them. They get to be 'artistic' about violence.

I don't think all very violent authors do this. I don't think Titus Andronicus is that kind of violence, for example. Yes, it's horribly bloody and sexualised but there's no sense that someone is immune and sitting back to enjoy how artfully it's done.

I'd find it hard to know where to start imagining that from a female point of view.