Feminist Pub IX. Newbies and regulars welcome - pop your cognitive dissonance down outside and have a gin.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Right, thought I'd better start a new pub. I warn you, my knowledge of Roman numerals conks out shortly after this one, so either buffy will have to start the next thread, or we'll have to go Arabic.

Everyone is welcome in - if you want to chat, or just jump in with a question/link/gin, please do. Especially if it's too small for a thread or you don't feel up to thread-starting.

The old thread has, at my count, about 9 posts to go, and it was here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2126791-Feminist-Pub-VIII-not-as-prolific-as-the-Swaggerers-but-there-are-cushions-and-consciousness?

We were just chatting about feministy light reading, and will doubtless meander onto other topics shortly.

[ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy]

Last word.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

'We don't know, so gimme a big grant to figure it out for my postdoc'?

Thank you for the new pub, capt.

[CaptChaos]

New, and not amusingly titled pub thread

[AnnieLobeseder]

Aaargh, just noticed this thread is full and I have no witty ideas for a new pub title.

[AnnieLobeseder]

Of course it's acceptable, LordCopper, but the examiners do get a bit suspicious if you say "We don't know, no-one has managed to figure that out yet" too often.

[UptoapointLordCopper]

Annie Surely in science it is acceptable to say I don't know? It's the fudging that's unacceptable. "I don't know - we tried this and that but it didn't work. It may be due to this or that but we don't know. We discussed this in depth and came up with zilch. It may be interesting for future work to try this or that to determine why it didn't work." I would be happy with that explanation. Or even "... and then we found this that works! Hurrah! And it's so much more interesting - look at this - >" I would be happy with that too as an examiner.

[PenguinsIsSleepDeprived]

Me too. Although it does seem to be one particular poster and almost everyone else going

The thing is, there is the kernel of a valid point about just assuming that someone's circumstances mean that they will not become pregnant. It is, I think, well known amongst HCP's that people don't always tell the truth about their sexual behaviour. It's just that rape is a ridiculous victim-blaming, woman-as-vessel argument to use. I would say a far more likely risk is that a woman in a relationship with a woman is also cheating on her with a man. Or that a woman who says she is celibate for religious reasons is actually sleeping with her partner pre-marriage. So I can see why you would need to jump through a fair few hoops for an exemption.

[PetulaGordino]

I am currently agape at the roaccutane thread

[kickassangel]

Thanks for replies to my Q. I shall stop worrying about dds physical development btw.

[kickassangel]

I've known people get science PhDs when I wouldn't pass them for GCSE English, so don't worry too much about the writing. I know the science is the import a part but one guy write something where the first 20 lines failed to have a full stop, even though it was very obvious that plenty were needed.

When I did my BA I once had a 20 minute discussion about a sentence with and in it, which couldn't be altered without altering the meaning. Eventually we came up with a 3 sentence alternative which meant the same and sounded better. But, seriously, how many undergrads spend 20 minutes in just one sentence?

[AnnieLobeseder]

I am far more concerned about the thesis than the viva. Basically if your supervisors deem your thesis fit to submit, it should be good enough for you to pass the viva too. The trick is to write the thesis well enough to not leave you open to nasty questions. 10 mins, though Because?!?! 4 hours is about standard in my field.

It will be tricky though because firstly it is on a virus about which we startlingly little. And it infects pigs who have weird immune systems. So there are just so many unknowns, or methods which are standard in virology/immunology that just don't work with our virus/pigs. So since my examiners are people who don't work with this virus or pigs, there will be a lot of

Them: But why didn't you try this really obvious technique?
Me: It doesn't work in pigs. Their immune systems are weird.
Them: But what about this other obvious technique?
Me: It doesn't work with our virus.
Them: Why?
Me: We don't know.
Them: "We" don't know (as in it hasn't been established) or "you" don't know (cos you're a crap scientist)?

ad infinuatum....

In a previous student from our group's viva they actually came outside to ask to her supervisors if all the "we don't know" answers were actually true instead of her just trying to cover up gaps in her knowledge.



But yes, I'm mostly worried that my writing won't be good enough.

[UptoapointLordCopper]

My viva was fine too. I've been an examiner in a viva before too and I'm not remotely nasty. And my previous student had nice examiners too - I would have given her a much harder time . But basically they want to know that you've written the thesis yourself ...

I haven't been following any news. >

[OutsSelf]

Okay, catching up on the cross-postings.

In my discipline vivas are quite nice, I think. Most people I've met dreaded them but really enjoyed them. I have an M.Phil and my viva was the most enjoyable hour and a half on the whole project. An indepth discussion of the thing that has been the centre of your whole life with knowledgeable people who have actually read it. Fabulous. And from the other side of the fence, I think you'd have to be a massive twat to be actively trying to scupper the candidate. If their thesis was problematic you'd be in the business of giving them ample opportunity to show that actually they'd got it covered, so you could direct them to an efficient set of rewrites.

Good luck Annie.

[OutsSelf]

Yay Scallops!

Shocked to hear you have nerves about your writing, LRD, it's great and clear. Transparent somehow, I always follow your thoughts without tripping over your phrasing.

I have no clitorus expertise but I did just google "how long should a clitorus be and can you have a clitorus that is too big" and the results are okay. There are some pictures of big clitoruses but they're really hard to assess because they are only vulva pictures so you don't get a sense of perspective.

I wrote this and then was distracted for a few hours which included putting the kids to bed while DP challenged some of his mum's sexism. Very edifying to hear, I was feeling quite down by the silence of men. My older brother, too, has been texting all about how he's been trying to discuss the Rochdale situation at his (male dominated) office. His experience was so depressing I can't bring myself to type it out. But there are men out there saying that they support feminism and they think there is a problem with the gender roles we have.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

It usually is a formality - vanishingly tiny numbers of people fail - but I think they often grill you to different extents! For example, my mate who is a very nervous person was told she'd passed almost as soon as she walked in, and they just chatted gently, whereas another friend who is very, very bright and self-confident was given a much more lengthy interrogation, because they knew she could take it. It varies between disciplines as well - I read about somone who spent four hours in the viva and got given a rest break in the middle!

scallops - yes, and what bothers me is that, obviously, you often get senior people to do it and a lot of them are men. There is only one person in my subject who could have exmained me, who's female - and she'd not have been a great fit. My friends have had no possibilities for female examiners at all!

[BecauseIsaidS0]

Maybe I'm just odd, but I found my viva to be a formality. I was asked some fairly basic questions, I offered to walk them through the statistics bit on paper and they declined, and I was out in ten minutes. Being a furriner, I didn't really know what to expect!

[scallopsrgreat]

A real power trip for the interviewers then. Putting the poor interviewee in their place. So patriarchal!

Calmly articulate with the rest of your life hanging in the balance . Not much then.

And yes Xenia won't be coming out any time soon (well may be a little bit in the interview)!

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Please, please, keep her an inner Xenia!

But yes.

You can have your thesis with you - but it's something like 90 thousand words so you can't leaf through it easily. Historically, you had to sit on a three-legged stool and answer questions from your examiners. Diana Wynne Jones writes a great children's novel where the arch-enemy is a demon called 'Tripos' (=three-legged). It rings very true.

A huge amount of it is just about being calmly articulate, though, so annie should be a natural.

[scallopsrgreat]

And of course I'm awesome. I've been giving myself a very robust feminist talking to as you suggested and channeling my inner Xenia

[scallopsrgreat]

OMG! Worse than I thought. So you don't have your thesis with you I presume? So your memory would also have to be pretty spot on too!

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Well, I hope we have turned the corner with the recession, but I prefer to think the reason so many of you lot are getting jobs/interviews/etc. is because you're awesome.

Ok?

A viva is an oral exam - you had in your thesis and they sit you down and make you explain your argument and justify any weak points. It is a completely barking mad way of examining anyone.

[scallopsrgreat]

Thank everyone for the best wishes. It must be that time of the year with so many job opportunities happening (or may be we've turned a corner with the recession)!

Vivas would put the fear of god into me tbh. And I'm not even sure what they are! I'm not academic even though I work at a University. So best of luck Annie with your thesis.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

It won't be crap. Especially if you've been put through the wringer early on, they'd be being extra cautious.

Also, if there are less-than-optimal elements (which I'm sure there aren't), you will come through that too - I did. It's not fun, but it doesn't define you as a scholar, and it's the good bits that'll end up on your CV as publications and so on, not anything that was a bit dodgy.

[AnnieLobeseder]

I'm sure they're the same as non-sciencey vivas, LRD.

I am starting to get very panicky. Not that I won't finish, but that my thesis is crap. I failed both my first and second year assessments because my reports were so bad and my vivas even worse. They actually demoted me to a MPhil after my 2nd year viva and I had to fight very hard to appeal that decision and get re-instated.

My advisors are saying that my thesis is fine. But they also said that my crap reports were fine....

I have sent some chapters out to other colleagues and bribed them with cake to read and give me a brutal opinion, but I haven't heard back from either of them yet.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

(That's me covering my utter ignorance of sciencey vivas there.)