Feminist Pub IX. Newbies and regulars welcome - pop your cognitive dissonance down outside and have a gin.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Right, thought I'd better start a new pub. I warn you, my knowledge of Roman numerals conks out shortly after this one, so either buffy will have to start the next thread, or we'll have to go Arabic.

Everyone is welcome in - if you want to chat, or just jump in with a question/link/gin, please do. Especially if it's too small for a thread or you don't feel up to thread-starting.

The old thread has, at my count, about 9 posts to go, and it was here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2126791-Feminist-Pub-VIII-not-as-prolific-as-the-Swaggerers-but-there-are-cushions-and-consciousness?

We were just chatting about feministy light reading, and will doubtless meander onto other topics shortly.

[UptoapointLordCopper]

Annie That's lovely. Always better to have facts than not. I have friends who think that telling them things like that robs them of their innocence.

Must get back to work ...

[AnnieLobeseder]

This morning she wanted to know what a clitoris is for.

It's not easy finding that balance between keeping it age-appropriate and being open!

But I fail to see how helping a child correctly identify and name that components of their genitals robs them of any innocence!!

I totally hear you on the self-preservation, LRD. There are days when I'm ready to take on the world and will roar my feminist roar to anyone who will listen. Other days I have to actively disengage to preserve my own mental health. It's important that we as women, who are conditioned to care about others before ourselves, realise that it's okay for us not to care sometimes, or only to care about ourselves for a while.

[StormyBrid]

I'm glad I've got a long time to figure out how to navigate discussion of genitals! The toddler is only one and a half, and I've recently taught her that her bits are, well, bits. Not part of her bum. There had been some confusion when asking her to point to body parts.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Eek, annie . Rather you than me.

I think orgasms stimulate all those relaxation/ bonding hormones, don't they? Does that sound suitably sciency and un-blushing?!

And YY, totally agree about it being ok not to care.

[AnnieLobeseder]

Orgasms have not been mentioned yet!

[kickassangel]

Ok, while we're on the subject, does anyone know what kind of size a clitoris on a girl (pre teen) should be? Ie I assume that there's a range which is fairly normal, and then there would be a size that starts to fall into a category of unusual?

I have no idea what mine was like around that age, and don't wish to google it in case of what could come up, so hoping to get some sensitive responses here.

[PetulaGordino]

Do you mean in terms of what you see on the outside of the body kickass? I'm afraid my experience of a range of cl

[OutsSelf]

Annie, you must report how this goes I'm in awe and taking notes for future DD (1). DS (3) is currently way more interested in her bits than she is, though she does do a bit of thoughtful looking fiddling.

I think I will get a book for DS as he has tried to get a proper look and touch in the bath. I took this as a first lesson in reasonable grounds for consent - because DD can't tell us how she feels about that, we can't do that - but recognise he has got an interest and that I shouldn't be censoring his interest.

Not looking forward to the clitorus moment, isn't it funny that I should feel embarrassed about pleasure? Must ask DP to what extent the pleasurable aspect of sex feels hard to talk about with the children.

[AnnieLobeseder]

It is true that the pleasurable aspect seems hard to talk about. Perhaps because it feels like telling them about this amazing fun thing they're not allowed to do! So for now I'm keeping it purely procreationary with DD1, and also talking about boundaries and consent when it comes to their bodily autonomy. When she gets to 11/12 I'll start on the emotional and pleasurable side of it. Because I don't think she's ready for that yet, and still thinks it's all rather icky.

The DDs did express their desire for a brother last night so that they could have a look at boy parts too. Then I left them alone to continue their investigations (DD2 6yo wanted to join in just cos big sister was at it). When I came upstairs again a few minutes later, DD2 was enthusiastically exploring her anus.

When DD1 started asking questions last year, we had a very quick chat, then I bought her [http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1406306061/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21 this book, which is fantastic]], left her to read it and then we spent some time together going through it, with her asking any questions she had. She was a bit embarrassed to start with but once we got going she was fine. She goes back to the book every now and then and asks any new questions that come to her. She might be ready for a new book soon with a bit more detail on sex.

[AnnieLobeseder]

Link fail!

[AnnieLobeseder]

I agree with you completely about censoring interest, OutsSelf. I try to answer any question the DDs have about anything, because it is the job of children to learn and our job to fill them with as much knowledge as we can, and a love of and enthusiasm for learning while we're at it. Reproduction is just as much a part of life as anything else, so it seems weird to censor that one subject. Especially as that may start to give the message that sex is shameful or wrong somehow. I don't want my DDs to get those messages from me.

[scallopsrgreat]

kickass, sorry I'm in the same position as you and have no idea. I can't remember. I have sympathy with you for not wanting to google though!

Annie your daughters sound wonderful. And yy to not censoring interest but still teaching boundaries. I've two boys and think teaching them about boundaries is even more important than for girls because so much in society will tell them it's OK to breach boundaries (mainly womens').

I had a bit of really good news today and found out I got through to an 'initial assessment and selection process' from my job application I wrote the other week. I am over the bloody moon. I'd completely convinced myself that I'd fucked it up (and tbh I really could have done so much better). Even if I don't get the job I am just happy to have got to this stage and had an opportunity to go for it! So psychometric tests and a case study here we come! That late night submission obviously had some merit!

[AnnieLobeseder]

Well done scallops! YAY!

[UptoapointLordCopper]

Well done scallop!

I'm not thinking about anything and not keeping up with anything at the moment. Just trying to meet a couple of deadlines at work, and doing my jigsaw puzzle and teaching myself how to do cryptic crosswords and knitting long snakes.

[Dragonlette]

Well done scallops!!

Annie, you're doing a better job of being open with your dd than I have with dd1. She's 14 now and stopped wanting to be naked or see me naked a few years ago. We've discussed sex but I don't think either of us would ever have enjoyed a session like you've just done.

Kickass, I don't have any experience of clitorises of pre-teen girls. Are you worried about your dd? Is it something she's worried about? Might it be worth mentioning it to your gp if you think there might be something wrong?

[DoctorTwo]

Well done scallops, and good luck with the rest of the process.

Thanks for the link LRD, I think it's beautifully articulated. You write in a way I envy. I love that one of the commentators used the phrase 'rape survivor'. I use the same phrase as I don't see myself as a victim, it was just something that happened and I got through.

[kickassangel]

Blimey I go to work for a couple of days and can't keep up. Well done scallops.

I'm mildly aware that there may be an issue with dd. She hasn't a clue and is oblivious to any concerns so I'd like
to keep it like that. My main issue is that in the future a partner may find her not within 'normal' expectations and take the piss. Of course, anyone mean enough to do that would probably do so anyway about something, but early sexual encounters can be pretty emotionally charged and really affect confidence anyway. So firstly id like to know if I'm worrying about something that isn't actually a problem, before I even say anything. We seem to have enough issues to discuss with doctors anyway with asperger's and sensory problems and anxiety, I don't want to be adding to the list.

She does have a well child check due at the start of October. I have no idea how rigorous that is but it may be noticed.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

doctor - that's very kind of you to say, I really appreciate it. I'm a bit nervous about the way I write, so I partly started blogging to try to get over myself on that. I think 'rape survivor' is an important phrase.

scallops - that's great, well done! Hope you are giving yourself a stern feminist talking-to about underestimating yourself, eh?

[CaptChaos]

Well done Scallops! That's fabulous news.

[AnnieLobeseder]

Lots of job hunting going on at the moment in the Pub. I shall be joining you all in a few short weeks. Perhaps I should get LRD, scallops, Capt and Petula to write my applications for me!

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Oh, god, you do not want me to write them!

I have a proud memory of misspelling English Literature on a job application. I have never submitted anything in my life without typos.

OTOH, if you wanted a glowing account of your purported brilliant at medieval gender studies, I could do that, but I suspect it wouldn't get you quite the jobs you're looking for.

You're presumably just concentrating on the PhD for the next, what is it now, four weeks?

[AnnieLobeseder]

5 weeks today (further wibbling). And then there's the small matter of the viva.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

It will be fine! You'll be great in a viva, you're articulate and so on.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

(That's me covering my utter ignorance of sciencey vivas there.)