Why do women give each other such a hard time?

[superstarheartbreaker]

I find women are in constant competition with each other . It can be about looks, child bearing/ rearing/ men / work blah , blah , blah.
I was talking to my female friends about a nasty comment that one of them made about me and the overwhelming response was that women are bitches.

This makes me sad but there is a lot of evidence to suggest it is true. I am long term single and instead of applauding my independent spirit I have been called many names such as spinster, desperate, sex starved, batting above my average..... By other women!

Am I being unreasonable to wonder if this is natural or a product of patriarchy ? If it is natural then surely feminism cannot fully succeed?

Go ahead and point it out then. I just did a very quick Google and the Daily Mail's readership up to March2013 (because those are the figures I first happened across) was just over 8% of the adult population, with only just over half being female. So even if we are generous and say women make up 5% of that 8%, 5% of the adult population are women who read the Daily Mail.

I don't experience this in my own life. Women here on MN are smart and supportive, sometimes critical and combative but I've never experienced that as "bitchy" most likely because I don't think in those terms. In my professional life, women have been my champions, mentors, supporters and friends consistently. In my personal life, women are the ones who talk to me endlessly about parenting and work, about the news or what's for dinner. Most of the women I know are brilliant, actually and I have not heard women speaking in a derogative manner about other women that we know (though some may have criticised public figures) since my very early twenties. I know if I initiated such a conversation with any of my five or so closest friends, I would not be indulged.

So no, I do not recognise this.

Ask my old line manager. We got on great, had a real laugh and she was so supportive. After an internal restructure I was moved into another team and she turned into a f**king bitch. We've fallen out so many times since and she remains totally loyal to her new team to my expense. I don't understand why she turned on me other than to show her new team how much she backs her own.

The vast majority of denegration i see in the press is by women for women

Right, and the press is just so much the definition of what is good, right and real? Or is it just a massive global money making enterprise, run by and for the benefit of the men who own it? Excuse me if I literally can't be arsed to take it seriously as a clear and straightforward barometer of prevailing social reality.

caroldecker Thu 31-Jul-14 00:33:18

The vast majority of denegration i see in the press is by women for women

From publications of which the media company is run by men.

I was bullied by girls at school, never boys. But I still don't see it as a natural inherent thing

Take any of the magazine publishing houses that churn out stuff like, Hello, OK, Grazia etc. Let's say they make a million pounds a month from publishing the current tat - who got fatter/thinner/saggier this month.

Now let's say some bright spark presented them a business plan that said 'Hey, if we did less negative fatter/thinner/saggier stuff, and introduced more positive stories, we could raise our profits by 20 per cent because there is a market for it. Look, here is the proof....'

Do people think they would chase that 20 per cent, and alter their output? Or do people think they would forgo the money in order to keep women sniping at each other?

my point about women's magazines is who buys them. If women are generally supportive of other women, then there is no market for these magazines - massive global money making enterprises become so because they deliver what the purchaser wants

I've been the victim of some very bitchy remarks on here.... Unfortunately. I also know lots of women in my small town who are bitchy to each other. Maybe I need to find new mates.

I don't think it's natural, I think the women who do it are that insecure (perhaps from paying attention to the media, I don't know) that they feel bigger or better about their own selves by bitching and belittling others.

2) A thread in Feminism entitled, 'why do women give each other such a hard time', carries the implication that men don't (give women a hard time). Seems legit to address this in the thread.

It also carries the implication that men don't do it to each other and that women don't do it too men, but we wouldn't bring that up as it's not what the thread is about and would certainly invoke "what about the menz". Your justification can be interpreted as saying it's ok to bring men into it only if we are being critical of them.

It's interesting that this is in the feminism section. Do feminists have to answer for how, really, women are really lovely etc before we can say that women should be who they are without all the ladyconditioning?

The reason why I aimed this thread mainly at women and put it in the feminist section is that I dont see how patriarchy can be defeated as long as women treat each other as they do...I...whether that is a result of natute or patriarchy.

There needs to be a much stronger united front. Why is it, in this day and age that my single status is such a source of curiousity and worse why do other women see it as a negative? I love my mates but it is quite hard to get them to talk about any other than their men. Maybe I just feel like an oddity.

you're not an oddity. there is an enormous amount of patriarchy-approved status that comes from being a (straight) woman in a relationship, and some women will defend that measly bit of status because it's one of a limited range that they are permitted to have. it's part of the same thing that keeps women in miserable longterm relationships

the patriarchy can't fit you into a neat little box so "wtf? a woman without a man? we must discover what is wrong with this creature and name and shame it!"

I dont see how patriarchy can be defeated as long as women treat each other as they do

So be more ladylike or give up? It's not up to women to be the good girls to somehow earn and end to the patriarchy. You don't get men wondering if they've been good enough team players to dominate the world. I can't stand this blame-the-bad-woman and get feminists to apologise for everyone game.

OP I wouldn't describe any of this thread as "bitchy". Robust discussion, yes. People disagreeing with you, yes. Bitchy, no. I think you're reading too much intent into what people are saying.

Ok I will give you an example of bitchy comments.

I have huge tits. I'm not into them as they are out of proportion. A beautiful slim friend has tiny boobs but feels bad about them. She has always had a thing about my tits and once said " at least mine won't droop when I get old." Bitchy but I still love her. This is patriarchy at play.

I saw a guy I liked at a party . I showed another friend who he was and was told that I was batting above my average.... Bitchy.

A flat mate at uni waited til I moved in with her to tell me that she didn't like girls and was only friends with boys only to make a move on the man I was in love with and kept telling me I had poo brown hair and competed against grades the whole time. Bitchy, bitchy, bitchy.

When I was pregnant my dds dad left me and I was staying with a flat mate. She told me I must be terrified of my money situation ( not in a nice way) and she made me clean her oven and generally made me feel unwelcome ( I was lodging with her.) I was having a tough time whilst pregnant and she made it far tougher. she was very jealous I think... Bitchy, bitchy, bitchy.

The worst one that wasn't aimed at me must be this: I was working with a bunch of girls abroad in our twenties. Two girls took a dislike to each other ( both stunning). One of them said "at least she will die before me!" ( the other girl was a few years older. The girl who said that comment was considered beautiful and very popular with the guys and girls) off the scale bitch fest!

To name a few. Or do I just attract/ deserve this kind of treatment.

Sorry OP, I thought by "I've been the victim of some very bitchy remarks on here...." you meant this thread.

Some of those comments are genuinely nasty. I wouldn't use the word bitch, but some of them are horrible. I'm not sure it's a female:female thing though? Unless I don't understand the context?

I think it's pure confirmation bias - we only notice those who confirm the stereotype and dismiss the others. I've known some unpleasant men and women in my life, and some lovely ones. There are plenty of supportive, understanding and accepting women.

When women are abusive, I dunno....I think I kind of understand, even though I would never do it and will never condone it. They are struggling for some kind of power in a world that gives them none. Men are much more likely to abuse and when they do, I look on it so differently.....with contempt. They have so much, so much to be thankful for, yet they STILL act like dicks!

Men are so much worse to women, yet all the friggin time we hear the bollocks of 'women are their own worst enemy..' yada yada.

I'm sorry to use the word bitchy and yes I do think that men are equally nasty to women... If not more so which is precisely why we should stick up for each other.

I do admit to feeling envious of girls who are thinner, prettier, younger than me etc, etc so maybe it's natural? I do also like women enourmously.