Why do women give each other such a hard time?

[superstarheartbreaker]

I find women are in constant competition with each other . It can be about looks, child bearing/ rearing/ men / work blah , blah , blah.
I was talking to my female friends about a nasty comment that one of them made about me and the overwhelming response was that women are bitches.

This makes me sad but there is a lot of evidence to suggest it is true. I am long term single and instead of applauding my independent spirit I have been called many names such as spinster, desperate, sex starved, batting above my average..... By other women!

Am I being unreasonable to wonder if this is natural or a product of patriarchy ? If it is natural then surely feminism cannot fully succeed?

[ezinma]

I don't like the word "bitchy". Some of the examples noted by superstar are nasty and sharp-elbowed; others are clumsy and inconsiderate. But they're not specific to women. Men, among themselves, are forever "taking the piss" with regard to each other's appearance and success (or lack of) in dating.

The main differences are:

1 Men are conditioned, from a very young age, to deal with spiteful remarks and bullying behaviour by either "taking it on the chin" or finding someone lower in the pecking order to bully;

2 Men don't use housework as a way of demeaning each other. They blithely expect women to demean themselves by doing it.

[LurcioAgain]

Pickle - but what about the men you've worked for? Were any of them domineering arseholes? Because your use of "Every one of them" makes me read what you say (apologies if this was not how it was intended) as "all women who reach managerial positions are bitches". Which in turns smacks a bit of that old saw that when a man cocks up, he's just an individual man who's cocked up, whereas when a woman cocks up, she's the living proof that every single woman ever, put in that same position, would cock up.

Disclaimer - I work in a little feminist utopia compared to most work places. Of course it's not perfect - lack of women in senior management, gender pay gaps in some job descriptions - but overall, supportive of women. I got promotion while working part time with a small child, two friends have been promoted to managerial posts while it was obvious to the interviewing panel that they were pregnant, another female friend has just made it to senior management, we have a female head of R&D, very flexible about part time working, and quite a lot of the men work part time to fit round child care too - in fact I don't know of a single man who hasn't taken his two weeks' paternity leave, it's just the done thing. Yes, I can think of the odd female manager who's not been nice to work for, but on the whole (and I'm thinking double figures here) most are damn good managers... and, surprise surprise, no worse or better taken as a group than the men.

So it could be that if you work in a hideously macho workplace, women managers are bitches, due to natural selection - only the bitches survive. But I'd bet that in that sort of environment the mal managers are domineering "dogs" too.

[Picklepest]

Dunno. I've worked with some right bitches. Every one of them resented other females coming up behind them and having it 'easier'. I found you could work out which were in which clique at school and then they followed that persona through. It's no coincidence an awful lot end up in HR which in corporate world is the biggest 'queen bee' area. Then work diligently on policy ensuring male dominance prevailed.

To my mind we are just human. And 3 of anything makes a crowd. Something along the lines of "three can keep a secret if the other two are dead". Always one vying for alpha dom, male or female.

[LurcioAgain]

NB - I'd apply my comment above to the woman who made the remark in your OP, Superstar, not to you.

[LurcioAgain]

Outself - that's interesting about your MIL. I think this is a more general pattern. Mostly when a woman I know (usually at the acquaintance level) says something along the lines of "oh, but women are such bitches..." I start to look out for other patterns in their thoughts - usually before long they'll drop other gems like "of course, men have it harder these days," or mention rape myths ("gosh, I wouldn't let my daughter go out dressed like that...") or some such. They do tend to be the sort of women who've internalised a hell of a lot of misogyny and are invested in policing the patriarchy.

[DadWasHere]

Why do women give each other such a hard time?

I guess you mean in comparison with men to each other? If you felt a particular woman had a possibility of hitting you repeated in the face with her fist if you gave her a hard time, would you? Now imagine that one particular woman as every woman.

[CaptChaos]

I think someone on here once said that feminism should be about loving women. Not in a sexual way, but in a way that promotes women's well being. Even women who are bigger or smaller, prettier or uglier will have their own problems, so, for me, it's important to try and act in a loving manner to them wherever they are.

This is exponentially difficult with some women, both on here and in real life, but I can see how practicing it might inform my feminism. If that makes sense?

[superstarheartbreaker]

I'm sorry to use the word bitchy and yes I do think that men are equally nasty to women... If not more so which is precisely why we should stick up for each other.

I do admit to feeling envious of girls who are thinner, prettier, younger than me etc, etc so maybe it's natural? I do also like women enourmously.

[Pepperwitheverything]

When women are abusive, I dunno....I think I kind of understand, even though I would never do it and will never condone it. They are struggling for some kind of power in a world that gives them none. Men are much more likely to abuse and when they do, I look on it so differently.....with contempt. They have so much, so much to be thankful for, yet they STILL act like dicks!

Men are so much worse to women, yet all the friggin time we hear the bollocks of 'women are their own worst enemy..' yada yada.

[VashtaNerada]

I think it's pure confirmation bias - we only notice those who confirm the stereotype and dismiss the others. I've known some unpleasant men and women in my life, and some lovely ones. There are plenty of supportive, understanding and accepting women.

[whereisshe]

Sorry OP, I thought by "I've been the victim of some very bitchy remarks on here...." you meant this thread.

Some of those comments are genuinely nasty. I wouldn't use the word bitch, but some of them are horrible. I'm not sure it's a female:female thing though? Unless I don't understand the context?

[superstarheartbreaker]

Ok I will give you an example of bitchy comments.

I have huge tits. I'm not into them as they are out of proportion. A beautiful slim friend has tiny boobs but feels bad about them. She has always had a thing about my tits and once said " at least mine won't droop when I get old." Bitchy but I still love her. This is patriarchy at play.

I saw a guy I liked at a party . I showed another friend who he was and was told that I was batting above my average.... Bitchy.

A flat mate at uni waited til I moved in with her to tell me that she didn't like girls and was only friends with boys only to make a move on the man I was in love with and kept telling me I had poo brown hair and competed against grades the whole time. Bitchy, bitchy, bitchy.

When I was pregnant my dds dad left me and I was staying with a flat mate. She told me I must be terrified of my money situation ( not in a nice way) and she made me clean her oven and generally made me feel unwelcome ( I was lodging with her.) I was having a tough time whilst pregnant and she made it far tougher. she was very jealous I think... Bitchy, bitchy, bitchy.


The worst one that wasn't aimed at me must be this: I was working with a bunch of girls abroad in our twenties. Two girls took a dislike to each other ( both stunning). One of them said "at least she will die before me!" ( the other girl was a few years older. The girl who said that comment was considered beautiful and very popular with the guys and girls) off the scale bitch fest!

To name a few. Or do I just attract/ deserve this kind of treatment.

[whereisshe]

OP I wouldn't describe any of this thread as "bitchy". Robust discussion, yes. People disagreeing with you, yes. Bitchy, no. I think you're reading too much intent into what people are saying.

[ApocalypseThen]

I dont see how patriarchy can be defeated as long as women treat each other as they do

So be more ladylike or give up? It's not up to women to be the good girls to somehow earn and end to the patriarchy. You don't get men wondering if they've been good enough team players to dominate the world. I can't stand this blame-the-bad-woman and get feminists to apologise for everyone game.

[PetulaGordino]

you're not an oddity. there is an enormous amount of patriarchy-approved status that comes from being a (straight) woman in a relationship, and some women will defend that measly bit of status because it's one of a limited range that they are permitted to have. it's part of the same thing that keeps women in miserable longterm relationships

the patriarchy can't fit you into a neat little box so "wtf? a woman without a man? we must discover what is wrong with this creature and name and shame it!"

[superstarheartbreaker]

The reason why I aimed this thread mainly at women and put it in the feminist section is that I dont see how patriarchy can be defeated as long as women treat each other as they do...I...whether that is a result of natute or patriarchy.
There needs to be a much stronger united front. Why is it, in this day and age that my single status is such a source of curiousity and worse why do other women see it as a negative? I love my mates but it is quite hard to get them to talk about any other than their men. Maybe I just feel like an oddity.

[ApocalypseThen]

It's interesting that this is in the feminism section. Do feminists have to answer for how, really, women are really lovely etc before we can say that women should be who they are without all the ladyconditioning?

[Slarti]

2) A thread in Feminism entitled, 'why do women give each other such a hard time', carries the implication that men don't (give women a hard time). Seems legit to address this in the thread.

It also carries the implication that men don't do it to each other and that women don't do it too men, but we wouldn't bring that up as it's not what the thread is about and would certainly invoke "what about the menz". Your justification can be interpreted as saying it's ok to bring men into it only if we are being critical of them.

[choochootrain1]

I don't think it's natural, I think the women who do it are that insecure (perhaps from paying attention to the media, I don't know) that they feel bigger or better about their own selves by bitching and belittling others.

[superstarheartbreaker]

I've been the victim of some very bitchy remarks on here.... Unfortunately. I also know lots of women in my small town who are bitchy to each other. Maybe I need to find new mates.

[caroldecker]

my point about women's magazines is who buys them. If women are generally supportive of other women, then there is no market for these magazines - massive global money making enterprises become so because they deliver what the purchaser wants

[Curwen]

Take any of the magazine publishing houses that churn out stuff like, Hello, OK, Grazia etc. Let's say they make a million pounds a month from publishing the current tat - who got fatter/thinner/saggier this month.

Now let's say some bright spark presented them a business plan that said 'Hey, if we did less negative fatter/thinner/saggier stuff, and introduced more positive stories, we could raise our profits by 20 per cent because there is a market for it. Look, here is the proof....'

Do people think they would chase that 20 per cent, and alter their output? Or do people think they would forgo the money in order to keep women sniping at each other?

[PetulaGordino]

I was bullied by girls at school, never boys. But I still don't see it as a natural inherent thing