Following on from the TERF thread...

[CailinDana]

Trying to get my head straight on this. Surely the whole malarkey around transwomen wanting to be recognised as women even though they have penises will eventually actually help to break down the idea of gender?

What I mean is, if a person with a penis can be labelled a woman simply because they want to be labelled in that way, surely gender becomes meaningless as it tells you nothing meaningful about a person except perhaps the clothes they like to wear?

This is a half-formed thought, feel free to develop/challenge.

[ReallyFuckingFedUp]

I see the demand that people with male bodies be allowed in to female spaces as patriarchy buffy. I don't know about other's views but I am personally not really worried about mtf people who have transitioned going in to female changing rooms etc, especially mtf who are attracted to men.

But I do find it upsetting that right now anyone can demand access to female space.

[GoshAnneGorilla]

Cailin - there's something a bit gleeful to your tone there. Are you saying it's OK for everyone, including other women, to treat kim "shittily", because " that's what she signed up for?"

Really - people can contribute to a discussion however much they please.

[almondcakes]

Kim, I am asking about the majority of trans activists, not the majority of trans people.

[CailinDana]

You don't want to be accepted as a woman? Oh, sorry, I thought that was part of being trans. When talking about "passing as a woman" what does that mean if it doesn't mean being accepted as a woman?

[CailinDana]

No Gosh, there's nothing gleeful about it at all. I wish it were the case that women weren't treated shittily, given that I am a woman and there are lots of women I love in the world. What I'm saying is that, unfortunately, if you choose to be a woman, you are choosing to be treated like shit by the world at large. Which is why we need feminism, as Kim stated.

[ReallyFuckingFedUp]

Literally with the exception of my daughter, I don't think I know of any women who I am close to that haven't been sexually assaulted. Even the ones that I am not that close to but who I have known a while. They have ALL been sexually abused.. the majority of genuine MtF people who want access to women's changing rooms are probably as any other person who was born a male... but it's the ideas that go along saying "women don't need safe places away from men" . It's a slippery slope to me

[ReallyFuckingFedUp]

Really of course they can, but traditionally in a discussion if you ask someone a question and they answer. It is rude to then say, well thanks for that but I won't be further engaging.

And I can choose to comment on that in any way I feel as well

[CailinDana]

No, Kim, sorry I really didn't get you. But now I'm thinking...trans is more a rejection of being male than an embracing of being female?

[ReallyFuckingFedUp]

dont know why i bolded my own name

[CailinDana]

To be honest Kim, I find you really obtuse.
You say one thing and then you deny you said it. Or someone challenges what you've said and you couch the same thing slightly differently rather than answering the challenge, or you simply refuse to answer.

You wish to "pass as a woman" and be called "she" etc but not be accepted as a woman. "Finding yourself and being true to yourself" is something everyone wants - it says absolutely nothing meaningful about being trans.

This is my take on it.
You don't want to be male.
You want to look female.
For whatever reason, looking female makes you feel better about yourself - if you would say more on this, that would be enlightening.

[CailinDana]

Ok kim, I thought we'd discuss it further as I didn't really understand but if you don't want to then I can't make you.
All I can say is that I don't really get it.

[GoshAnneGorilla]

Cailin - you really can't understand someone saying that talking about something gives them distress, so they would rather not discuss it?

Step back a minute from the feminists vs trans people mindset.

Someone is telling you "I can only talk so much about subject X, because I find it too personally distressing".

Would you really call that person obtuse and say you don't understand them? Or would you respect their boundaries?

Also, I don't know how long you've been on here, but these discussions have been happening for years. Kim has been involved in these discussions for years, so I completely understand why she feels she's said everything already.

[allhailqueenmab]

Kim - I thought you asked "what do you think we want?" Sorry if I got that wrong, it's hard to go back and check.

I answered the question as to what I think you want.

[ReallyFuckingFedUp]

If a thread really distressed me, I would stay off it. I wouldn't start on it make demands, then say it was distressing. I wouldn't send Pms to try and guilt people in to not discussing things. I would not (as on last thread) say people were using slurs because they referred to someone (who still had a penis) as biologically male.

Kim silences all trans discussions.. I can understand finding them difficult but the normal way of dealing with that would be to step back.

If a heterosexual cis gender white male came on here and said "by discussing the patriarchy you are making me feel unconformable" or asked for answers but refused to respond to questions would you also run to his defense?

[ReallyFuckingFedUp]

I have seen posters tip toe around offending you so many times that it is very obvious you silence discussions. All you have to do is say something makes you feel bad. SO people avoid the discussion rather than hurt your feelings. You are a prominent member of the FWR section and no one wants to upset you.. I don't think this has been missed by you either