Following on from the TERF thread...

[CailinDana]

Trying to get my head straight on this. Surely the whole malarkey around transwomen wanting to be recognised as women even though they have penises will eventually actually help to break down the idea of gender?

What I mean is, if a person with a penis can be labelled a woman simply because they want to be labelled in that way, surely gender becomes meaningless as it tells you nothing meaningful about a person except perhaps the clothes they like to wear?

This is a half-formed thought, feel free to develop/challenge.

[Beachcomber]

It's a slightly different subject, but you might be interested in this article by Bindel, UptheChimney. It was linked to on another thread in a post by SevenZarkSeven.

Viewpoint: Should gay men and lesbians be bracketed together?

[Beachcomber]

Sorry, I've just read that back and realized it looks like I've ignored what you said about (not talking about biological sex/acculturated gender here) because I've gone on about gender!

I should have said that I don't think you can really separate out the threads of sexuality/gender terribly easily in Queer Theory because they are linked and really part and parcel of the concept together. I do think that homosexuality, bisexuality and lesbianism challenge patriarchy - in particular lesbianism (hence why it is so marginalized).

However, I don't think lesbianism, bisexuality and homosexuality are a spectrum. What makes the spectrum are all the other bits which are about contesting rigid categories of gender and they are of course inextricably tied in up gender, gender identity and gender as an identity. Queer Theory didn't invent or name non heteronormative sexual orientations, they have existed since as long as anyone can remember and have always challenged oppressive patriarchal rules on sexuality or what feminists call 'compulsory heterosexuality'. We didn't and don't need Queer Theory in order to do that, it was being done already.

[HaroldsBishop]

Who let Ali G on?

[BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure]

Fwr troll, Harold.

Please report, I will.

[Bracquemond]

When I first saw this discussion I expected that it would be mostly about intersex people, rather than MtF and FtM transsexuals, which seems to be the focus. (The general public, by the way, use these, and related, terms very loosely.)

I found the discussion via a search for MRKH (Mayer Rokitansky Kuster Hauser Syndrome), after seeing this week’s “Embarrassing Bodies”, on which one of the patients was a woman born without a womb and with “no vagina” (in fact, she had a very short – 2 cm – vagina). This is a genetic variant in XX women. There is usually full or partial ovarian development.

I was also aware of a syndrome known as Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (CAIS), in which a different genetic variation, the body’s inability to respond to androgens, causes the woman to be born with (often quite large) breasts, a clitoris, a vagina (sometimes short), extremely feminine facial features and very clear skin but no womb or ovaries: instead there are residual testes inside the body.

Both syndromes are known to cause gender identity problems and depression, but in accordance with the “biological reality” criteria, the CAIS person is called a “genetic male”, although to the average person, the idea of a feminine-looking “man” with luxuriant head hair, breasts, a vagina and a functioning clitoris might cause some cognitive dissonance at the very least. A CAIS woman – I choose to use the term “woman” – must feel as if she has been told that she has “male atoms”.

In addition, there is a wide range of Partial Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome conditions, with, in some individuals, a small penis which looks like a large clitoris, and, in others, a large clitoris which looks like a small penis. It was mostly cases such as these which panicked doctors such as John Money into carrying out “gender reassignment” surgery, often with disastrous results for the individual later in life.

CAIS and PAIS intersex individuals report that they encounter difficulties in life which are similar to those suffered by gay and disabled people: prejudice, bullying, isolation, self-doubt, etc., and that, whether or not this is qualitatively or quantitatively analogous to misogyny/sexism, it is certainly similar in the sense that it diminishes their lives. The very least which might be expected is a little more sensitivity. A lot of pejorative comment seems to reflect the very “binary” sentiment the speaker or writer claims to oppose. If an intersex person has to conform unwillingly to one of the binary poles in terms of behaviour, appearance or anything else, that is an injustice. If it means a third bathroom, then so be it. Build it and they will go.