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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Following on from the TERF thread...

635 replies

CailinDana · 15/06/2014 21:28

Trying to get my head straight on this. Surely the whole malarkey around transwomen wanting to be recognised as women even though they have penises will eventually actually help to break down the idea of gender?

What I mean is, if a person with a penis can be labelled a woman simply because they want to be labelled in that way, surely gender becomes meaningless as it tells you nothing meaningful about a person except perhaps the clothes they like to wear?

This is a half-formed thought, feel free to develop/challenge.

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kim147 · 17/06/2014 10:47

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kim147 · 17/06/2014 10:48

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 17/06/2014 10:48

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ReallyFuckingFedUp · 17/06/2014 10:49

BUt what do you actually want in terms of practicalities? Should all bathrooms be unisex? Should there be a third option? Should people get to choose? I think a third option would be fair but I think that would be against what most trans people would choose?

kim147 · 17/06/2014 10:51

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SmallPress · 17/06/2014 10:51

It's those few abusive, vocal trans activists online, though, who are screwing things up for everyone else, trans and non trans women alike.

allhailqueenmab · 17/06/2014 11:13

Kim, here's my guess about what you want.

  • in real life - the ability to live, work and play unharrassed and with equality
  • in theory - in discussion spaces like this - an absolutely paramount and unchallenged victim status that "trumps" everything else and all other concerns

I support your right to the first, but frankly I am terribly bored and rather irritated by the second

kim147 · 17/06/2014 11:16

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kim147 · 17/06/2014 11:19

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CailinDana · 17/06/2014 11:22

It has been a very interesting experience for me to see the "transition" of a male friend of mine from "typical" (sports-watching, beer-drinking, manual-working) male, to something approaching a female when he became a SAHD to a girl. Three years ago, he used to think his wife (who was on ML with their new baby girl) did "nothing" all day, used to complain about her waking him when she got up with the baby every night (and never ever did a night feed) used to expect dinner on the table and his shirts ironed etc. Then, as his wife was the main breadwinner she went back to work and he became a SAHD, and now he says pretty much the same things as a woman does, about feeling invisible, and his interest in feminism is very high.
Nothing physical about him has changed at all. He is a tall, very physically strong man. But he has gained a new perspective on the world. It started when he said to me "I feel invisible," having been a SAHD for about 6 months. I said "that's how women feel all the time." His attitudes have changed dramatically over the last three years, in fact I have never seen such a change in a person. First he turned all his sexist attitudes on himself, and he expected the same unreasonable things from himself as he did from his wife, in the belief that, being a good person, his expectations were realistic and so if he expected them of a SAHM he should expect them of himself. It's only over time that he has seen that his expectations were rooted in sexism and he has come to see his own sexism from the inside so to speak. And he has rejected that sexism. He is in the process of becoming a true feminist ally because he has an inside perspective so to speak.
However, he is still very aware of being a man and the advantages that continues to confer on him. He acknowledges that though he has experienced the devaluing that women experience he can never ever understand what it's like to feel under threat from the opposite sex.

It strikes me, Kim, that you are seeing being a woman from an inside perspective and you're not liking it much either. You talk about the difficulty of being a dissenting voice etc - these are things women experience all the time, from day one. I think you have to accept to a certain extent that if you are going to become a woman you are going to take on all the disadvantages of being a woman, you will not get special treatment. And being a woman sucks. Sorry about that.

On top of that, being a man, you have never experienced the same level of threat that biological women have experienced. In fact, you are a threat. And women will treat you that way, for our own safety. So you have the double whammy of the shittiness of being a woman and the lack of acceptance from both men and women of being trans. It must be tough.

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ReallyFuckingFedUp · 17/06/2014 11:27

So Kim basically you are saying you can ask everyone else (and we can answer) whatever you like, but you won't be answering any questions. How very useful to have you on a thread. What an interesting discussion and can I say how unusual it is for a woman to be told how a conversation is going to work and how it won't be on my terms.

kim147 · 17/06/2014 11:30

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ReallyFuckingFedUp · 17/06/2014 11:40

If you come on to a chat thread where discussion is really the only option. it's a bit bizarre to say you have not intention of discussing it..once you have had you say.

Why are you here if you don't want to discuss it, would you prefer to get your feelings across with some sort of interpretive dance?

I can't see any reason for radfems to have any problem whatsoever with trans people if they weren't trying to put themselves in female spaces or expect access to female bodies.

kim147 · 17/06/2014 11:42

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ReallyFuckingFedUp · 17/06/2014 11:44

My worry is that if we have to accept that "sex" has no literal meaning and that females aren't females that all hard won rights will be lost.

We have already seen gender triumph over sex. I want to be able to send my daughter in to a girls changing room and feel safe. I want to say that as a woman I have been discriminated against and not because of my gender. My gender is relevant and I don't perform femininity in even the laziest way.

ReallyFuckingFedUp · 17/06/2014 11:44

*irrelevant

kim147 · 17/06/2014 11:45

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CailinDana · 17/06/2014 11:45

Kim, do you accept that if the world views you as a woman, then you will be treated as a woman, ie, shittily?

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kim147 · 17/06/2014 11:47

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CailinDana · 17/06/2014 11:50

That's fair enough. But it strikes me that the things you describe - not being accepted, not having a voice, etc, they are things that women experience all the time. If people view you as a woman, you will get that treatment forever more.

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kim147 · 17/06/2014 11:52

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 17/06/2014 11:52

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almondcakes · 17/06/2014 11:52

I have met very few trans people in real life. None of them have ever given any impression of believing the kind of stuff that is all over social media.

It would be true that you could cherry pick from any kind of activism and show extreme views. But if that is the case for transactivists and third wave feminists promoting trans activist ideas, where are the sites where the mainstream of these groups write? Where are the third wave/trans activists explaining trans issues who don't agree that it is discriminatory to label female reproductive organs in a school text book, that abortion is not a women's issue etc?

Where are this majority who hold a different view?

kim147 · 17/06/2014 11:55

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CailinDana · 17/06/2014 11:55

Do you also see, Kim, why it is hard for women to accept you, when you haven't experienced the very real danger they have experienced? And also because you can't relate to having periods, to being told to cover up, to being the focus of sexism all your life?
You are trans, and that brings with it its own very difficult challenges. But those challenges are not the same as the ones women face. Do you agree with that?

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