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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can anyone help me get my head round this alleged rape?

276 replies

StormyBrid · 30/05/2014 22:52

A couple of years ago, there was an incident between two people I used to know but haven't really seen for years. I keep coming back to it and pondering it, because I just don't know what to make of it. I'd appreciate any thoughts.

I'll call her F and him M, for clarity. And all I know is hearsay, but confirmed by many witnesses. For some months there had been escalating flirtation between them, at social gatherings, with alcohol involved. F has a partner. On the night in question, their flirting was commented on by many people - both of them could have been described as up for it. By the time they disappeared into a bedroom, both were incredibly drunk.

No one knows what happened in that room. F says she remembers nothing, but it was clear from, ahem, the state of her trouser region that sex had happened. M says he barely remembers what happened, but that F was very enthusiastically consenting during.

Here's where my confusion comes in. M says F consented, but F was clearly too drunk for that consent to be valid. F says it was rape. So far, so good. But M was just as drunk, and so equally couldn't give valid consent. So surely if he's guilty of rape then she is too? Can two people rape each other at the same time? Wouldn't that cancel out?

OP posts:
SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 02/06/2014 01:04

You're welcome, the gambler.

I think that we can agree that the way the state of the world is, today, we can worry about rape? As a misogynistic crime against women, yes?

I mean, we are talking in the same week that the forums that Elliot whatsisname (I hope his name is soon forgotten - but not what he did) murdered women for having the audacity not to have sex with him, and the forums he frequented basically being hotbeds of "rape tips" ?? The same week that 2 girls were raped and hanged from tree in India, whilst looking for a toilet? The same week where only 10% of rapes that occur in the UK will be reported at all?

Go and whatabouthemenz elsewhere.

thegambler · 02/06/2014 01:17

I agree but it's not "what about the menz" at all, it's just the way this particular case is being viewed.

Oh and for what it's worth Elliot whatsisname also killed men.

slithytove · 02/06/2014 01:21

Gambler

I don't think many people would class it as sexual assault if a drunk man slept with a sober woman. Even if legally it would be.

Same as young boys sleeping with hot female teachers are often envied and comments like "why didn't we have teachers like that in my day" abound.

It's very wrong. And acknowledging the abuse of men by women does not in anyway minimise the horror of rape for women. At least IMO.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 02/06/2014 01:25

How did I know you'd say that Elliot killed men too? How did I know?

He killed his housemates because they had hot gf's he thought they weren't worthy of. He wanted to break into a sorority, kill all the girls, and wanted all women in concentration camps, starving to death or being raped by men considered 'worthy'. The fact that he was shot before he got that far...? What is wrong with you that you ignore that?

This particular case is being discussed because 'F' thought it was rape - so your point has no meaning at all (except the obvious whataboutery). M hasn't complained.

thegambler · 02/06/2014 01:28

It wasn't meant in anyway to minimise the horror of rape or sexual abuse in any way, as I said previously it was just in reaction to this particular case, the way it was being described wasn't exactly even handed, that's what I was trying to point out.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 02/06/2014 01:32

Which particular case - the OP's or Elliot's?

The OP's was explained in the clearest possible terms - the complaint of rape was made by the woman.

To bring anything else into it, is whataboutery.

thegambler · 02/06/2014 01:36

What if M complained, would you back his claim ?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 02/06/2014 01:38

He hasn't. The scenario is that F complained that it was rape.

thegambler · 02/06/2014 01:39

Hypothetical question then, would you ?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 02/06/2014 01:43

I don't know - just as I don't know in F's case. As I said, F's case would be unlikely to be convicted in court, because of the legality of consent.

thegambler · 02/06/2014 01:49

Do you mean you personally don't know if F's case is legitimate or you don't know if it would get a prosecution ?

Shows how difficuilt many rape/sexual assault must be to get a prosecution and that is scary stuff even for a man to get.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 02/06/2014 02:01

Yes - it shows that exactly. Let's stick to the scenario - that's what we're talking about, after all. I think F's case could well be legitimate, but I don't know how that could be proven in court. No-one knows whether M "reasonably" thought she was consenting - every rapist that ever there was claims that - doesn't mean she was.

They all claim that it was consensual.

However, look at the picture in terms of patriarchal sex roles - do women go on the pull? Yes. Do women, in general, go out on the getting sex pull? In the same way that men do? That sex is something to 'get' from people? No. not in general.Otherwise PUA shit would exist for men and women. And women do't generally have the physical strength, or biological mechanism, to pull it off. Men do.

slithytove · 02/06/2014 02:06
  • sorry gambler, I didn't mean to imply that at all, I was just expanding on my previous post. I'm in agreement with you
thegambler · 02/06/2014 02:18

That sex is something to 'get' from people ? That would be very much open to debate. PUA (is that pick up artist ?) shit does exist for women, not online as a cultish thing like it is for men but there;s plenty of "how to snare a man" stuff out there, even gold-diggerish.

I wasn't making out that she raped or sexually assaulted him , just that judging by the same rules she could have and the ways different people would perceive it.

thegambler · 02/06/2014 02:23

No worries slithytove. It's a nasty topic and raises emotions even when most want the same thing.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 02/06/2014 02:28

Yes, gambler, so you admit you were doing the 'whataboutery'. It is obvious to all. And, no, the PUA shit is not 'cutish' and it does not exist for women. That shit is all about men getting sex from women,and how not to be 'friend-zoned' - the greatest insult to men like Elliot - to have to value a woman for her humanity without getting the sex.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 02/06/2014 02:37

^ and let's not forget, the PUA shit includes rape tips as well as boasts of raping women. Hopefully all online bravado - oh, but when you read the stuff about the number of women raped in society - maybe not.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 02/06/2014 02:41

^ None of the rape tips say "grab an unsuspecting woman in a dark alley and just do it" - they're all about making friends with her, taking her on a date, isolating her from friends, making it difficult for her to say no... etc. All the things that muddy the issue of genuine consent.

thegambler · 02/06/2014 02:44

Crikey you have me googling tonight, "friend zoned" ?

Right, done,yeah I've seen it done, both ways as it happens though mainly male to female. I'll quiz my wife tomorrow for a better view on it.

No denying the greatest insult for men like him is what you describe.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 02/06/2014 02:51

Well, if you're googling on 'friend zoned' and clearly don't know the first thing about the elliot case....or rape laws in the UK... can I respectfully suggest you do some reading to your benefit? Just a look at the FWR threads recently would have given you the basics on what you're discussing on this thread?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 02/06/2014 03:01

And yes, I'm tired and annoyed. I'm annoyed that every thread on FWR has to go back to basics like this, cos someone comes on with the whataboutery crap. AT least check out the threads here. Or the current new stories. How would you even enter an FWR debate as a man on rape without some basic knowledge??

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 02/06/2014 09:55

"Also what do you mean by drunk? Give me a legal definition that works in all circumstances. Leave no room for a grey area."

. A court would look at the evidence of the victim's level of inebriation (do witnesses say speech was slurred? Does CCTV show difficulty walking?) and make a case by case judgement as to whether the victim was in a state to give valid consent. Similarly a court would hear from teachers, social workers etc if the issue was whether a 16 year old with SEN had sufficient capacity to consent - there wouldn't be one definition.

DenzelWashington · 02/06/2014 12:04

Leave no room for a grey area?

Look, the law lays down principles of varying generality depending on the subject matter, and those principles have to be applied to the facts of each individual case. It is not possible to prescribe rules and principles that will apply to every single case that could possibly come up.

And 'drunk' can mean different things depending on the person involved. E.g.g someone with a pre-existing physical or cognitive impairment that meant even getting middling drunk would incapacitate them.

brighteyedbusytailed · 02/06/2014 13:48

I haven't read all the posts but has anyone picked up on the 'both disappeared into a bedroom' bit ? When one has a Partner? at a party full of people? Shock

As awful as I will be blasted for this, I would be surprised that such blatant bad behaviour is a mark of a) too much alcohol and b) a pre- existing affair, I wonder if the attached person has just realised they've majorly outed themselves as a cheat on a very public level and is panicking..sorry I know some people won't like that , it just screams at me from the description.

brighteyedbusytailed · 02/06/2014 13:49

*wouldn't be surprised

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