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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can anyone help me get my head round this alleged rape?

276 replies

StormyBrid · 30/05/2014 22:52

A couple of years ago, there was an incident between two people I used to know but haven't really seen for years. I keep coming back to it and pondering it, because I just don't know what to make of it. I'd appreciate any thoughts.

I'll call her F and him M, for clarity. And all I know is hearsay, but confirmed by many witnesses. For some months there had been escalating flirtation between them, at social gatherings, with alcohol involved. F has a partner. On the night in question, their flirting was commented on by many people - both of them could have been described as up for it. By the time they disappeared into a bedroom, both were incredibly drunk.

No one knows what happened in that room. F says she remembers nothing, but it was clear from, ahem, the state of her trouser region that sex had happened. M says he barely remembers what happened, but that F was very enthusiastically consenting during.

Here's where my confusion comes in. M says F consented, but F was clearly too drunk for that consent to be valid. F says it was rape. So far, so good. But M was just as drunk, and so equally couldn't give valid consent. So surely if he's guilty of rape then she is too? Can two people rape each other at the same time? Wouldn't that cancel out?

OP posts:
AICM · 01/06/2014 14:39

Bill n Ted

What if you gave the keys to your friend and said take my car when you were drunk?

What would the law say then? Theft or no theft?

Ifpigscouldfly · 01/06/2014 14:41

Actually is it still theft anyway even if you don't mind ? Does it matter if you mind or not legally ? I'm slightly confused now.

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 01/06/2014 14:45

Do I feel the next day that I was too drunk to make that decision?

AICM · 01/06/2014 14:50

Yes you do feel that. Otherwise there wouldn't be an issue.

But the law doesn't work on would you would have done if you had been sober.

It works on what you actually did. You gave your car away. Theft or no theft?

AICM · 01/06/2014 14:56

20 years ago a friend of mine got very drunk and stole a charity collection tin from a pub. Something he would NEVER have done if he was sober. He was way too drunk to realise that he should not do it.

He was convicted of theft.

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 01/06/2014 15:03

But then he committed the crime.

I think the law can judge if someone had capacity to sign a contract when it was signed, for example.

Gotta go now.

AICM · 01/06/2014 15:14

With the greatest of respect Bill n Ted that seems like you've dodged my question then left.

Yes he did take the money when his judgment was impaired by alcohol and when he was sober he had to take full responsibility for what he had done.

I don't see where signing a contact is relevant to any aspect of this.

Gotta go now.

slithytove · 01/06/2014 16:10

It's an interesting question.

If you give someone permission to do some thing - anything - while you are drunk.

Is that permission invalid? It is with sex. But with anything else?

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 01/06/2014 16:21

Not at all - it meant I was going out with my kids.

Minnieisthedevilmouse · 01/06/2014 16:43

Actually in this instance I have sympathy for M (and obvs F too). If this interaction needs to be explained in such detail then I'm wondering how a person would feel.

M thinks night was fine. He's not feeling guilty. I think every other crime you probably know in advance that what's happening is in fact a crime and therefore penalties. But with drink and sex there's possibility for that not to occur maybe until you are shown way after the event. M may never in fact feel guilty I suppose as maybe he feels it wasn't the way described. As whilst he can learn that what occurred was a crime will he equate it to himself or dissasociate?

One drink too many. Very very sad.

unrealhousewife · 01/06/2014 16:53

Perhaps we need a new charge, as in 'drink in charge of a vehicle' is different to the charge of the accident caused by it.

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 01/06/2014 16:59

Drunkeness is not an excuse for committing a crime and no one has ever argued that it is.

My contract point was to do with capacity to consent.

slithytove · 01/06/2014 17:04

So it's established we can't consent to sex while drunk.

What else does this apply to? I can't think of anything really.

DenzelWashington · 01/06/2014 17:13

It could apply to loads of things-consenting to having a tattoo; a medical procedure; entering into a contract of any kind, the permutations go on.

Lots of things could be undone or result in e.g. charges for assault or breach of fiduciary duty, or whatever because they were done to or with a person incapacitated by drink or drugs.

grumpasaur · 01/06/2014 17:16

I have to say, this sounds to me like they both got drunk and actively pursued a good drunk shag. She has sobered up, realized she cheated, and has convinced herself that she didn't cheat because she was too drunk to consent. This isn't victim blaming, this is what often happens unfortunately!

Calling it rape, in my view as someone who has BEEN raped, really detracts from those of us who genuinely did NOT consent and still had PIV forced upon us.

In other news, men can most definitely also be raped, and to say otherwise is equally offensive to those men who have been!

DenzelWashington · 01/06/2014 17:34

Men can be raped, but not by women, I think. Penetration with something other than a penis would be sexual assault.

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 01/06/2014 17:37

In uk law, rape is penetration with a penis.

A woman who has sex with a man without consent commits a sexual assault which carries an equivalent sentence.

Minnieisthedevilmouse · 01/06/2014 18:28

Ok. Interesting. So blimey, could F have sexually assaulted him too? If she says she can't remember can he issue a counter claim? They may have used more than missionary I guess. Where does it stop...?

(Pure exploration on my part and not actually in OP or other of the op posts.)

Ifpigscouldfly · 01/06/2014 20:12

That's kind of one of the things I was wondering in my posts but couldn't quite articulate.

slithytove · 01/06/2014 20:23

I do think there should be a campaign to publicise that.

If it is as simple as "you cannot consent to sex while drunk. It is rape"

Then that is quite a clear, scary message with no grey areas. It would certainly make me stop and think.

Much better than the debate of "well was consent given, was it forgotten, was it never there, what do others think, is it dependent on gender etc etc"

Or could the above open people up to malicious claims? E.g. In a relationship breakdown if a couple have sex after a bottle of wine on their anniversary.

I'm thinking aloud and confusing myself.

Cos if the above pha is true, then as others have said, if two drunk people are having sex, it's rape/sexual assault for both of them.

So does that cancel it out? Or do they both go to prison.

I suppose if the above were true, at least in OP's scenario, they would be equally guilty as the consent 'M' thinks he gave, would be invalid.

What do others think? Would appreciate some clarity!

summerflower · 01/06/2014 20:23

Minnie, has that point not been covered, though? At no point has M said that he did not want sex; he has said that he can barely remember what happened, and that F was consenting during (the two statements don't really tally) but I don't think there is anything which suggests he didn't want to do it, those comments are coming from F.

slithytove · 01/06/2014 20:24

But then, if the above were true, would it mean that genuine rapists use it as an excuse?

"Oh we were both drunk. Neither of us consented, she (in this example ) abused me"

I don't know.

summerflower · 01/06/2014 20:25

The Scottish police force had that kind of campaign last year. I will look it up and link.

Ifpigscouldfly · 01/06/2014 20:25

And how drunk is too drunk to consent ? One ? Two ? A lot ?

summerflower · 01/06/2014 20:29

www.wecanstopit.co.uk

On phone, not sure if that will work. It is called We can stop it, of you google that.

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