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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can anyone help me get my head round this alleged rape?

276 replies

StormyBrid · 30/05/2014 22:52

A couple of years ago, there was an incident between two people I used to know but haven't really seen for years. I keep coming back to it and pondering it, because I just don't know what to make of it. I'd appreciate any thoughts.

I'll call her F and him M, for clarity. And all I know is hearsay, but confirmed by many witnesses. For some months there had been escalating flirtation between them, at social gatherings, with alcohol involved. F has a partner. On the night in question, their flirting was commented on by many people - both of them could have been described as up for it. By the time they disappeared into a bedroom, both were incredibly drunk.

No one knows what happened in that room. F says she remembers nothing, but it was clear from, ahem, the state of her trouser region that sex had happened. M says he barely remembers what happened, but that F was very enthusiastically consenting during.

Here's where my confusion comes in. M says F consented, but F was clearly too drunk for that consent to be valid. F says it was rape. So far, so good. But M was just as drunk, and so equally couldn't give valid consent. So surely if he's guilty of rape then she is too? Can two people rape each other at the same time? Wouldn't that cancel out?

OP posts:
summerflower · 01/06/2014 21:54

The point is that you can't give consent when you are drunk, so therefore you should not have sex with someone who is drunk. I don't see any grey areas there, it is fairly black and white, I don't see the grey.

AICM · 01/06/2014 22:02

Here's a grey area for you.
You should not have sex with someone who is drunk. If they are both drunk are you saying the woman id in the wrong?

LoveSardines · 01/06/2014 22:04

Different people have different definitions of "drunk". For a start.
Some people who are drunk do not seem drunk.
Lots of people who are drunk like to have sex.

So eg if a couple drink too much on a regular basis and often have sex in that state, and they're both more than happy with that, then that's fine, isn't it. No-one would expect them to refrain.

AICM · 01/06/2014 22:05

Also what do you mean by drunk? Give me a legal definition that works in all circumstances. Leave no room for a grey area.

LoveSardines · 01/06/2014 22:05

I agree that as a rule of thumb, and in sex-ed, and society generally, a message of "don't have sex with anyone pissed" is a great message.

It is not the fact though that it is always "wrong", clearly.

AICM · 01/06/2014 22:09

The whole subject is riddled with grey areas this why proving rape 'beyond reasonable doubt' is problematic. That is one reason why the conviction rate is so low.

summerflower · 01/06/2014 22:16

But it is not about proving rape, it is about not commiting rape in the first place. It is simple, men should not put their penises in women when either party is drunk or they suspect they are drunk. If that was the starting point, there would be less need to prove anything because it would not have happened. Just wait till the morning. Just like if she is asleep, wait until she wakes up.

LoveSardines · 01/06/2014 22:17

But again, AICM, most rapes that get reported to the police are not "grey area" - as people self-select. Very few rapes are reported to the police, those that are, are generally the ones where there is some kind of evidence. As people (women) know that they are not going to get anywhere with a straight his word against hers. In addition, many women believe "rape myths" themselves - that they bear some responsibility because they were drinking, or flirting, or invited him in or whatever, and so don't report.

In a situation like in the OP, in reality, that person would be extremely unlikely to report anyone - and actually she didn't.

LoveSardines · 01/06/2014 22:19

Some people like having sex when they're drunk though, summerflower.

Unless you define drunk as "falling down unconscious".

How would you define drunk?

summerflower · 01/06/2014 22:22

I don't know, my father was an alcoholic so I can't deal with drunkenness, so I am ill-qualified to say. I have a low tolerance of drunk people, so I don't have a sliding scale of what is capable drunk and incapable drunk. Capable drunk seems to me a misnomer.

Softlysoftlycatchymonkey · 01/06/2014 22:27

In my youth after having faaaar to many drinks- I "came round" straddled across my boyfriend, dressed in the ann summers outfit I'd took for our night away . No recollection of putting it on, no recollection of starting to have sex. Nothing.

Obviously I was 'up' for it. I had dressed myself, was enjoying myself -apparently. We laughed about it at the time but now it scares the shit out off me .

LoveSardines · 01/06/2014 22:30

If you're used to alcoholics then it may be that you have a much higher level of what you mean when you say "drunk" IYSWIM.

Just the word "drunk" is really subjective.

strawberryangel · 01/06/2014 22:39

Summerflower, I enjoy sex when I am drunk. Who are you to tell me I should refrain?

SolidGoldBrass · 01/06/2014 22:42

Everything the OP has said about what allegedly happened on that particular night suggests crap drunk sex rather than rape.I think it's quite important for women to have the right to fuck up and make mistakes and be stupid without havinga law against it.

slithytove · 01/06/2014 23:00

Softly - with hindsight, would you say he was a rapist?

I apologise if the question is upsetting or triggers anything

slithytove · 01/06/2014 23:03

The word drunk is the grey area IMO

Taking into account as others have said

People can enjoy drunk sex
There are different levels of drunken-ness
You can be drunk and not appear so

Etc etc

And with the whole reporting it thing you mention love - I agree with your posts.
However, the OP has described a situation where for whatever reason, 'F' has not reported it, but has openly told many people that 'M' is a rapist.

If she did give consent at the time while drunk, and he believed her while drunk, I can't in all good conscience call him a rapist, and feel very sorry for him. And after all, she isn't claiming she said no, or was forced, etc etc. She is saying she can't remember.

Softlysoftlycatchymonkey · 01/06/2014 23:33

slithy in my own circ , no.

We were both hammered. He was my amazing summer fling, I still think fondly of him now. I worked very closely with him and still see him from time to time, but strictly just colleagues as we are both very happy with other people.

We were staying in a hotel, had been out and had a fab night and went back to have sex. I fully intended to have sex with him, I bought the kinky outfit.

What is fucking scary is that a had a black out but still fully able to dress myself, put stockings on (sorry TMI) then start to have sex- then 'wake up' with myself having sex on top of him.

I would not call him a rapist , no.

thegambler · 01/06/2014 23:43

Would it be rape if he were drunk and she were sober ?

slithytove · 02/06/2014 00:01

Thank you for answering softly

It's situations like yours (and I have been in similar) that makes me worry for men, as it would have been very easy for me or someone in that situation to wake up and feel taken advantage of. But that does not mean the man was a rapist.

slithytove · 02/06/2014 00:03

By the logic displayed on this thread gambler (and assuming consent, nothing forced etc etc) I would think that means the woman had sexually abused the man, as the consent is invalid if he is drunk or more drunk than her, and has woken up feeling abused. If he woke up happy, then I infer it's not abuse?

I can't see that standing up in court. I hope I'm wrong.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 02/06/2014 00:33

I think the problem is that many people do enjoy drunken sex, and are more likely to have sex with someone when they're drunk (that they wouldn't necessarily have when sober).

The law here (I think) says:

  1. a man has to reasonably believe that the woman consents.
  1. A very drunken woman cannot consent to sex.

The grey area is - was the woman too drunk to consent in the first place.

I really doubt that the man in the OP scenario would be convicted - as he would be able to reasonably argue that he believed the woman was consenting, and witnesses saw her going into the room willingly. That, in my eyes, doesn't mean she wasn't raped.

I think you can relate this to the Ched Evans case - the jury saw her go to the room willingly, if drunkenly, with Clayton. CCTV, showed her accosting him. walking up into the hotel with him - BUT THEN Ched Evans comes along later and asks to join in (I think he asked Clayton in fact) - and it wasn't at all certain or reasonable that she consented to sex with him (Evans) - who just turned up there later. She had no memory of anything. Only Evans is convicted of rape.

The "too drunk to give meaningful consent' part was added to law, I believe, to make drug-rape charges realistically stick in court. Because, when a woman has been drugged, she cannot say no, or struggle - so the man can say legally he thought she was consenting because she wasn't resisting. Which is obviously just so wrong.

Enthusiastic consent is the only thing to go by - but;

  1. Rapists don't care about genuine consent, and can argue what they like in court.

  2. A woman can seemingly enthusiastically consent to sex whist vv drunk (well, I know I can).

The gambler - only a man can commit rape under UK law.

thegambler · 02/06/2014 00:37

sbj....Well we ought to campaign to have the law changed so it cuts both ways ?

(Aware I'm going to get flamed for that but in for a penny)

slithytove · 02/06/2014 00:44

I think rape with an object should be a real thing

If someone (sorry) forced a dildo into me anally, damn well that's rape, and I would say the same if it happens to a bloke.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 02/06/2014 00:45

I won't flame you, merely educate that rape in the UK is a crime that is defined by penetration of the vagina, mouth or anus, by a penis.

Anything else is sexual assault - which carries the same sentence as rape.

And no, we shouldn't be campaigning against the word rape, or the legal definition of rape - because rape is a misogynistic crime that happens to predominantly women and girls, but also to boys and men - and is committed by men - as an act of violence, power and control, in relationships, by strangers, or as an act of warfare, the world over.

thegambler · 02/06/2014 00:53

Thanks for the education, I wasn't aware that sexual assault carried the sentence as rape.

What I was getting at was that it seems to be viewed that man (drunk or sober) having sex with drunk woman is rape, where as man drunk having sex with sober woman isn't (I now know it is sexual assault)....I wonder howe many would see the latter as any crime at all ?

I agree with you on the rest and I guess you understand I was being a bit flippant to get my point over.

What to make of this case ? I really wouldn't like to say unless I personally knew the people and the dynamics of the relationship.

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