Feminist Pub VII - Chat, questions, random thoughts too small for a thread ...

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Just setting this up while we finish off the last few posts on the old thread. Come in and pull up a bar stool!

yikes, why wouldnt you want want to know?! I mean, I'd be horrified, but I'd want to know.

never found any feminist insight down back of sofa, but have found old mobile phones, remote controls, notes of various denominations, food, toys, and several dead lizards.

yanbu outself, but god that looks like hard work.

Are you actually considering doing it? I wish there was some sort of co-operative for home ed, I'd do it then. Actually I know bugger all about home education so maybe there is

Yes, we really are considering it. We're currently in London so it seems totally feasible in terms of resources and community but that could change and obviously we'd rethink. I'm an academic and DP works from home most of the time so we could manage, at least for now. I think while they're teeny we'll do autonomous learning and see how it goes, basically. That thread is pretty tough to read, though, people clearly think I'm nuts/ controlling/ neglectful/ delluded/ and massively disadvantaging my children by not necessarily sending them to school.

The OP on that thread asked for "instinctive" responses, and that is what she got. There was actually quite a bit of educating going on as well as reasoned discussion.

I am the first to admit that my views on home schooling are influenced by the fact that I live in the US Bible Belt, where most home schooling is done by patriarchal fundamentalist Christians in order to shelter children from "heathen" influences in schools, one of which is feminism. This type of home schooling also emphasizes heavy use of corporal punishment, of the type that would probably be illegal in the UK.

I realize that it is different in some other parts of the US and in the UK, and I understand why some parents would want to do it. It has been an interesting discussion of many aspects of home schooling, and like so many discussions on MN, I do think many people on that thread have had their minds opened.

queen I have been through the school system with dd1, but somehow all the implicit sexism of expecting mum to be interested while dad is expected not to be particularly interested passed me by. I was dd1's ONLY parent so obviously I had to be the person who engaged with school. This time round, with dd2, she lives with 2 parents who both work, one ft and the other pt, why shouldn't the expectation be that the pt working parent will have more to do with school. I know that would still mean that more women would deal with school, but at least there's some logic behind that expectation. I can't see any logic in expecting mothers to engage with school even if the father works fewer hours and is perfectly capable

Lionheart I would certainly want to know. Has your ds seen stuff like that at school? Yes, speak to school, they will want to know so they can speak to the whole year about what they should/shouldn't be looking at online. I'm never quite sure how much use those talks are, but at least most schools try. If you had a list of specific boys who have been looking at those clips then that would really help the school as well.

I've always quite fancied home educating, which is perhaps a bit hypocritical seeing as I'm a teacher. I think dd1 would have reAlly benefited from it. She's found school really boring because they find it hard to chalk her enough in a class of 30 with quite mixed abilities. I've never done it because I can't really afford to, I need to work to pay the bills, and dp wouldn't want to home ed (and he doesn't have the right temperament)

Two orders of business.

1. Have you read the Blog of the Day? I know we all cringe a bit when we have to laud a man for actually having sound feminist principles for reasons of a) all decent people should have them, b) it smacks of giving men more credit for being feminist than women and c) listening more attentively to truth when men say it. But it is a good blog. I like him.

2. This lovely item I found on a Facebook feminist page under the hashtag #flashbackfriday. Words fail me.

I have never considered home edding for us, because I would be terrible at it, and because we both need to earn money.

I think that done well it is probably the best kind of education in the world. Done by me, it would probably be among the worst.

I feel terribly uncomfortable in schools. I feel very odd there and self conscious, not that anyone creates this in me - they are all perfectly nice - but even dd relates to me in a really odd artificial way and we sort of play a charade of a relationship that is quite different from how we relate to each other in real life - see, you see, for me, schools just aren't real life, there is something false and worryingly inauthentic about them.

I know this is just me. this is not a criticism of schools and I am glad they exist to educate my children so I don't have to consider home education

OutsSelf they deinitely started to differentiate girl/boy colours/games/toys/anything once they started school. It was very frustrating.

I have always taken Buffy's route, which is to talk, discuss, debate, educate (counter-propaganda).

Dragonlette No, my son told me about the other boys because we were talking about playground conversations etc and he mentioned the children he did not want to be around.

As for home schooling, I didn't post on your other thread because it was all a bit crowded and looked like it had moved on. But I think there are a lot of misconceptions and incorrect stereotypes about homeschooling (much like there are about feminism!). A few years ago I would have though "Hippy freak!" and worried about poor children having no opportunity to socialise.

But now that I know a few homeschoolers and understand that there are whole communities who hang out together so lots of socialisation goes on, my opinion depends on the person who is doing the homeschooling. If they are normal sensible people, I have nothing but admiration for them, especially if, like you, you're doing it principally because the education system has failed your child and you feel it is absolutely the best option for them individually.

I also know a religious freak family like the ones SconeRhymesWithGone mentioned (though South Africans living in the UK, not Americans), and I feel wretched for those poor children because they're being fully immersed in the indoctrination of their parents with no outside influence to soften the blow of religious ignorance and intolerance.

As for me personally, I'm one of those anti-maternal people who thinks children are best experienced in small doses and so couldn't even be a SAHM, let alone do homeschooling!! And it's lovely to post that here where I know you will all understand, rather than anywhere else on MN where there would be much hand-wringing and comments along the lines of "Why have children if you don't like them?" and "I feel sorry for your poor children, you sound vile".

Sorry for the lack of clarity, Annie, the other thread wasn't mine, though I felt it directed at me as someone who wants to home ed. DS is only three and a half so if we were going to school, we'd only be starting nursery in September. We've no plans to send him to nursery, or DD who is one, but some of his friends will be going. We thought we'd like to let them choose for themselves, but have decided that they aren't ready for school while they can't read and write, after they are free to go. The whole culture of school - its brutality and casual reinforcement of sexist social order is a real worry for me, though. There again, I am a real worrier.

I know what you mean OutsSelf but on the other hand both my boys have had teachers (male and female) who have modelled non-sexist behaviour, pulled children up on it and upheld feminist principles.

Having that kind of reinforcement in an institutional rather than family environment can't be all bad.

Ha! I found the feminist insight I lost. Or perhaps that's still lost and I found a different one. Never mind. It wasn't down behind the sofa cushions, I found it on the thread about men who leave skid marks in their underwear (or towels or bed sheets) and who apparently not only feel no shame about this, but also expect their wives to clean it.

So on threads like that, and ones about men who do fuck all housework or about men who are wankers in the usual variety of ways, I think to myself, "Thank goodness DH isn't like that. How lucky I am to have married a man who isn't a wanker/does half the housework/doesn't leave shit in his pants."

But you know what? Shortly thereafter realise that I shouldn't feel lucky! Yes, DH is a fine specimen of a human being, but why is it that it so often feels like he is the exception? Why should any woman at any stage of her life ever feel grateful not to be treated like shit? Why isn't the default that men are respectful/domestically capable/toilet trained/not rapists? How I wish it were true that the #NotAllMen campaign really was protesting from a position of truth, and that the fuckwit men genuinely were an aberration from the norm.

Sigh.

And another thing... why do so many men have so little respect for themselves? It really is true that feminists hold men in greater esteem than they do themselves.

Someone I know asked on Facebook why women couldn't be referees for men's games and vice versa. A man responded that men referees in a women's game would get too distracted. Really? FFS, you're not animals, why credit yourself with only the basest response?

You're right Annie. I quite often feel lucky to have dp when I read a thread complaining about husbands/partners. Then I sometimes read out the truly appalling ones to dp and he says something like "see how lucky you are to haveme? You could have ended up with a right shit". I always think but this should be the norm. Nobody should have to feel grateful that their partner is a generally decent human being, all men should be generally decent

I think the same way when women irl talk about the thoughtless crap that their partners do. My sisters partner seems to be just as much of a knob as her ex, but no matter what I say, or her friends say, she seems determined to stay with this prick. She doesn't think she'll find anyone better, all her boyfriends have treated her badly in one way or another. Then she says she's not like me, so she couldn't possibly be happy on her own without a man

And here's the argument about why all people in a privileged group benefit from privilege whether they consciously exercise their privilege or not, isn't it?

I was on a thread recently with some petulant bloke who got really pissed off and tantrumy because I pointed out that if men are nice, decent, reasonable people, they are given massive credit disproportionate to how nice they are, because we're so grateful that they're not the nasty ones. As such, that means that the nice ones don't have an incentive to stop the nasty ones being nasty - the nasty ones keep us all in line and give the nice ones the benefit of being thought absolutely marvellous. If most men were nice, reasonable and decent, the ones we know who are, wouldn't stand out from the crowd the way they currently do. All men benefit from the abusive behaviour of some men.

Someone I know asked on Facebook why women couldn't be referees for men's games and vice versa.

When this is mentioned I usually post " Sian Massey ...

I've seen her ref a tinpot non league game and she got every decision right. She is, in my opinion, the best referee in the country

I find it strange that people judge the majority of men based on the people who maybe post on MN. I do wonder how many men are not mentioned because they are not cheating, leaving shitty pants round or being abusive arseholes. I never really mention DH because there is nothing that he does that would excite MNers.

Sian Massey is a great referee, but considering the training and the route to the big time for all refs we are unlikely to see many. XH qualified as a ref and was told it would take at least 7 years for him to get to a high level of football and that would involve at least 30 games a season. DS1 would not worry about what sex the ref is so long as the game is run properly and he plays a lot.

Anne, I was at a friend's house recently we were discussing the relationship of another friend of mine.... it sounds miserable and she said "I guess we are just lucky". And I thought bullshit. We aren't lucky, being a decent man should be the basic minimum expectation for a husband.

Would it be terribly un FWR of me to tell you how excited I am to have my horrible smelly 4.5 kg washing machine removed today and replaced by a 9 kg monster! and that dh is installing it, on Fathers Day

I am ridiculously excited about it, is this what old age feels like? You start getting excited about washing machines and their many settings?