Not all men

[AskBasil]

Interesting article here

May I be terribly boring? I may. Oh good.

man, mant is being generous when she says we've been doing this for half a century. We've been doing this for centuries, plural. Lots of them. And you know, there have always been men who got it. I know of a man, who lived in the fifteenth century, whose wife asked him to stop sleeping with her ... and he did it. Cos, you know, she actually didn't like it so he stopped. And I know of a man whose wife spent her career insisting prostitutes should be helped and not stigmatized, who happily took up a role as SAHD, in the middle of the nineteenth century.

These men, who get it, have always existed.

Gertie- do you think it's working?

gertie - mmm, I disagree, then.

I chat to men I know with the whole 'oh, have you thought'. But I don't see the use of that in general, because it sets us up for the trolls who come in pretending to be reasonable then showing their true colours.

To a degree in my experience, yes I do.

Polite discussion and challenges to thinking? There's nowt rude about saying, "men are violent." And it challenges thinking. Sorted.

But that's the thing, isn't it?

I know perfectly well there are some men I know, who have come to accept radical feminists don't have horns and tails, because they know me and they've noticed I don't. That's exposure for you.

But I think this is part of the normal process - I don't think it requires us to give up on class analysis or to stop using this language. I think they're just different levels of human interaction. No-one (I hope) starts in telling their four year old he's an instrument of the patriarchy, even if he's just yelled 'girls are stupid' and punched someone.

But we do still need someone to be acknowledging that oppression of women exists.

Yes, I agree, it's not rude to say that, it's true, I just think everyone can be the sort of feminist they are comfortable with being.
And challenge in whatever way they can.
Neither way should be thought of as wrong.

Also, who is challenged by the statement, "some men are disrespectful towards women?" Fucking no one.

Looking at what has worked, because we have made leaps and bounds (in the west at least), I immediately think of the Suffragettes...those nice, patient ladies...

most men have got the message that beating their wife and raping women is wrong.

Round of applause for Most Men. Quick, someone give them a cookie. And get those women to STFU about male violence because Most Men don't beat and rape.

Other Men beat and rape. It's all fine and sorted now! It's those Other Men, nothing to do with Most Men. Go home feminists, it's all sorted out.

Chuh! What! The wimmenz are still complaining because Some Women are beaten and raped and Most if not All Women experience misogyny.

There's no pleasing some people!

I dunno about right and wrong (I am a cynic and I do think some types of feminism are less convincing than others - but then, I've little interest in having a rant about it). I do think that the problem is, saying 'everyone can be the sort of feminist they are comfortable with being,' assumes that people will be respectful.

On this thread, we're seeing that people demand one kind of courtesy, but won't extend it. That's not, to my mind, letting everyone make their own way as a feminist. And that's when I struggled to accept the 'let's be nicer' idea, because it seemed it only applied to men and not other feminists.

Ha, we should get MN to do a line in, "Did you mean to be such a sexist twat?" mugs. That is about as polite as I feel about the whole thing.

beach - well, yeah.

I mean, honestly ... who is doing this?

I find this really horrible to think about. I could go over the men I know in my mind and try to think it's none of them (and goodness I hope it isn't).

But we are a forum with how many thousand regular users? Many of us know these men in real life. We must do. It just can't make sense in numbers if we don't. So it might be some of those men I can't believe would do it.

Beachcomber - "If men really are that stupid, I think for the benefit of everyone they really need to hand over the running of the world to someone more capable. It's an accident waiting to happen."

You are right. I strongly believe that if women had been fully and equally represented at all levels in financial markets then the Financial Crisis would never have happened.

I used to work on a City trading floor. You really have no idea how bad a group of men are at making sensible decisions in a high risk environment.

"Yes, I agree, it's not rude to say that, it's true, I just think everyone can be the sort of feminist they are comfortable with being."

So long as it is a sort of feminist that actually is feminist. There is a lot of the "pole dancing empowers women" type of feminist around....."

manwith - is that because you're saying women are innately more sensible and more risk-averse, or that we're conditioned to be these things?

In either case, surely, if women had been fully and equally represented in society, these differences would have disappeared, no?

Most men have got the message that beating and raping their wife is wrong. Like such basic human rights need a fucking message? And it this is so clear to most of you, why are so many of you silent about it, or laughing at jokes about it, or liking stupid Facebook photos about it, or not challenging other men who publically minimise and laugh about it. Why is telling feminists how to talk to men or rent and their movement or conduct their discourse a good use of your time in the context that other men are still doing this shit? On a massive scale?

Manwithnoname- how are you getting on with that script?

You really have no idea how bad a group of men are at making sensible decisions in a high risk environment.

Actually, I really do. As do all women. Because we have to live with the fucking consequences.

OutsSelf you are being churlish!

Most Men understand that beating and raping women is not on anymore. This is amazing and fabulous progress. Surely you aren't expecting men to stop joking about rape/perpetuating rape culture/minimizing male violence against women/pay women for equal work/not pornify and buy and sell women AS WELL.

Who do you think you are? Don't you know your place? (it is handing out cookies to Most Men who don't beat and rape women. And keeping quiet about those Other Men that do all the beating and raping and being unfair to the wimmenz cos it hurts Most Men's feelingz if you nag about that.)

I have to go to bed.

I might talk some more tomorrow.

ManWith - I've gone through a similar thread/debate here on MN/FWR in the past (to clarify I'm male). I kind of understand what you're trying to say and get across. I think the problem is that everyone on this thread has seen what you're saying dozens of times over, so despite your (and mine for that matter) likely good intentions the truth is there are an awful lot of men who have come before you saying something similar, without a lot of change as a result.

When I first learnt properly about Feminism it kind of changed my world view. I couldn't understand why I didn't see the misogyny that is so apparent all around us on TV, in books, magazines, films etc. you do look at things differently and the world is a darker place. I still don't understand why I couldn't appreciate it but I guess if you're the power-class rather than the oppressed-class then it isn't forced down your throat day in day out. I'm sure there is some kind of cognitve dissonance on the go too, being part of such a bunch of scum that men (as a class) are yet still retaining some degree of personal moral compass must require this.

For the record, my background was of a relatively (as much as it can be I suppose) equal gender, middle class household. I don't think that was the norm so those brought up in more traditional households would have an even greater revelation I would think.

Then there's also the difficulty in empathising outside of your class, we have never lived as women, we don't have their experiences: societal or biological so trying to understand a contrasting viewpoint from a priviledged position isn't going to come naturally.

Anyway, just wanted to let you know I empathise a bit, even if I disagree with you. I don't think it is the approach/semantics etc. that needs to change. I think people (Feminists and those with sympathies) need to get angrier, or at least care less about potential reactions.

Sorry, that turned into a bit of stream of consciousness type post.

You know immediately sprung to mind when ManWith posted....
"I think the problem is that 'nice' men:

a) don't realise what the issues are - they need it explaining in a way they can understand and will accept;

b) are not sure what to do - they need to be given specific actions; and

c) are uncomfortable piling into an issue that 'women own'."

....every single fucking thread on MN (and there are hundreds) where a women is complaining that she does all the housework while her husband wants a medal and a blowjob if he manages to run the hoover over the rug once a year. There are always lots of helpful replies along the lines of:

"But men just don't see the dirt!"

"They just don't understand how to work washing machines" (but can manage every other bit of "fun" technology out there just fine.

"Men aren't naturally inclined to care about housework the way women are."

The usual solution? "You need to be more specific. You need to explain exactly what needs doing. Write him a list, give him tasks."

Do we see the parallels to ManWith's point a)?

And it's all utter bullshit, because these men aren't stupid, they aren't incapable, they just don't fucking care that their wives are acting as skivvy to them because they see it as the natural order. If these men ever do eventually listen, it's not because their wife as asked them nicely to wash the dishes, it's because she had lost the plot and told him she's leaving if he doesn't change. No man has ever suddenly started to do his share of the housework because his wife asked him nicely. These men were quite happy to have everything done for them and it probably never actually occurred to them what utter unreasonable shits they were being, and more often than not, will comply temporarily to shut the nagging woman up, then slowly revert to doing nothing.

The same applies to "engaging" men in feminism. Asking nicely cannot ever work.

Because men don't care about women's suffering. They really don't. They have been socialised to see women as "other", as inferior, and so they have been raised without any intrinsic empathy towards the position of women.

No "asking nicely" in the world is ever going to change that.

YY, summed it up.

Agree Annie because "asking nicely" just means they can "nicely" ignore it - because you weren't being serious were you?? Surely if things were so bad, you'd be angry n'all.

I thank the men like Dervil and Keepit and a very few others who take the time to post on these threads - sometimes I think that 1 post of yours is (to them) worth 1000 of the feminist's amazingly eloquent posts - just because you're a man, and they listen to men. (But I do genuinely thank you for it.)

Truth is, men have absolutely no idea what it's like to grow up in a blatantly sexist society, because they don't experience it. Manwithnoname states he knows nothing about male violence and rape - because he hasn't experienced it.

I have. I'm a woman. Will you listen to me? I can tell you all about it. Will you listen?