Not all men

[AskBasil]

Interesting article here

a) don't realise what the issues are - they need it explaining in a way they can understand and will accept;

b) are not sure what to do - they need to be given specific actions; and

Yunno, if I were I man I would be bloody offended by the above.

You sound like one of those washing powder adverts in which the poor menz are portrayed as thick (when it suits them).

they need it explaining in a way they can understand . Really? I mean really? Men need to be told how to behave like decent human beings? Really?!

I totally agree that men shouldn't behave inhumanely towards women, of course they shouldn't, and I suggest that getting men on side (as it were) is easier (for me at least) by talking and discussing and pointing out when issues arise in conversation that they have wives and Daughters.
And that they also have sons who will be growing up hopefully seeing and treating women as equal without realising that's what they are doing because they have never known any different.

"a) don't realise what the issues are - they need it explaining in a way they can understand and will accept;"

Right. Why don't you have a go at doing that? Me? I think men are just as capable of thinking, reading and using their eyes and ears as women are.

I have been a feminist, by the way, since 1973. And I have been regularly told over those 40 years that if only women were just a bit nicer to men everything would be all right. And women have been doing it. Worked well, hasn't it?

What actually needs to happen is that men should stop being quite so nice to each other. Challenge, talk, explain. Men can do this stuff. They just don't want to. Why would they? It's going to make their lives harder. Giving up privilege sucks. That's why, with some honourable exceptions, they fight every step of the way. And one of the most effective techniques, on a macro and a micro scale, is the "I nearly understand. Stay here and explain it to me again, using every so slightly different words. I might get it then. No, not quite- one more time...I promise, once you make me understand I'll move mountains........"

I've heard this crap so often in my 20 years of being a feminist. I know where is is going.

Women only have themselves to blame if they won't nicely explain to the menz how to behave like decent human beings.

Right.

"And that they also have sons who will be growing up hopefully seeing and treating women as equal without realising that's what they are doing because they have never known any different."

Yep-we thought that in 1973 as well.

Quite Beach How come men have no problem being able to run banks, form governments, conduct wars, pioneer surgery, invent new technology etc. but they need very simple and kind language to understand 'stop being sexist'?

I am offended on behalf of men Man.

One of the points of this thread (I think) and the linked articles is to focus on men's behaviour, especially male allies. I'm linking this article again in case it has been overlooked:

aroomofourown.org/everyday-mansplaining-can-men-really-be-feminist-allies-by-vabvox/

The point is to look at men's behaviour, not women's. gertie that's great if that's how you want to address sexism in your life, I don't think anyone here is saying women must not express feminism in a way that men like (although as others have noted, there is a danger of allowing nice guys to think they are not part of the problem or benefitting from the problem). The point, I think, is that men who consider themselves feminists or feminist allies should examine their behaviour and should not interject with NAM in feminist discussions. The prevalence of this behaviour by allies is one of the reasons why women only space is important for feminist discussion.

link buggery:

www.aroomofourown.org/everyday-mansplaining-can-men-really-be-feminist-allies-by-vabvox/

What Martorana said.

I thought that in 1973 too Martorana.

^I think the problem is that 'nice' men:

a) don't realise what the issues are - they need it explaining in a way they can understand and will accept;

b) are not sure what to do - they need to be given specific actions; and

c) are uncomfortable piling into an issue that 'women own'.^

See, I think a statement like "Men are violent," or "Men oppress women," or "Men don't respect women" or "Men pay women less than they do other men" is the answer to all those problems. It (a) names the issue; (b) clearly invites them to challenge this issue by calling other men to task and (c) specifically makes it their personal.problem, being as they are named a part of the problem. Granted, b and c might happen through a quite painful consciousness raising process which might even start with a reactionary NAMALT! There's no way a statement like "Some men..." could hail their attention in that way.

It suits a lot of MRAs and anti-feminists to pretend that feminists don't have male friends and family members, so that their feminism isn't being passed on to anyone (=anyone male) if it's not being passed on to adult men with their own agendas.

(And yes, I know that's a 1973 fallacy ... but surely, the ideal that we'd all bring up feminist men and the patriarchy would disappear along with cheesecloth is one extreme. And the MRA idea that none of us ever talk to or educate male relatives is another extreme.)

Beachcomber - most men have got the message that beating their wife and raping women is wrong.

Its the other stuff, the harder stuff that is less obvious we don't always get. I think equal pay is partly like that. Some of the inequality in pay and promotion prospects is down to active and conscious sexism. Most of it is down to unconscious bias though.

Stuff like the page 3 issue. What's the harm? No one is forcing the woman to take her clothes off. I've seen women topless on the beach so why not in a newspaper? I have heard the arguments men use - they haven't got the message.

Men need to understand their own subconscious attitudes, why it is those attitudes and the things we do that harms women.

Some things need explanation. Men don't live as a woman. We don't have your life experience.

Beachcomber - most men have got the message that beating their wife and raping women is wrong.

How do you know that, man?

And if it's true, how come, just in the UK (which at least has laws against rape), something like 7000 women per month are raped?

Gertie- if you thought that in 1973, with respect (as people always say when they are about to be rude) why are you still talking about "getting men on side"?

Yes, exactly.

Men have put themselves in charge of the world and think they do an all round fabby job of running the world. However when it comes to working washing machines and treating women like human beings they really need women to take a whole lot of time and walk on a whole bunch of eggshells in order for them to grasp really basic concepts like boil wash no good for wool and paying women less than men is not quite cricket.

I smell shite.

Laura Bates' book reckons a woman is raped every 6 seconds.

I mean, imagine.

I cannot get my mind around it. I want to believe most men would be horrified at this, but I can't get the numbers to add up. Surely, there must be a man raping a woman every six seconds ... that's a lot of men, I would think.

Man I don't believe they haven't got the message. They don't care or they actively want things to continue as they are. Education and talking nicely are not the issues here, these men are not stupid. They want the status quo to continue.

Man- women (including me) haver been explaining all this for half a century. Go on, you tell me what to say. I promise, next time I will use your exact words. Give me a script so that men will understand.

mant - I think she's talking about it because the thread is talking about it, TBH. We've been dragged back to 1973 and it is depressing.

Because I prefer to talk rather than fight.
I did try to qualify the 'getting on side' remark with an 'as it were', but I think you get people's attention better with polite discussion and challenges to their thinking.

LRD- she's not just talking about it- she's agreeing with it.

ManWithNoName do you mean to paint men out as to be so stupid and lacking in basic humanity?

Because it is either that or they don't really want change because things are pretty comfy for them as they are.

What Flora said.

If men really are that stupid, I think for the benefit of everyone they really need to hand over the running of the world to someone more capable. It's an accident waiting to happen.

May I be terribly boring? I may. Oh good.

man, mant is being generous when she says we've been doing this for half a century. We've been doing this for centuries, plural. Lots of them. And you know, there have always been men who got it. I know of a man, who lived in the fifteenth century, whose wife asked him to stop sleeping with her ... and he did it. Cos, you know, she actually didn't like it so he stopped. And I know of a man whose wife spent her career insisting prostitutes should be helped and not stigmatized, who happily took up a role as SAHD, in the middle of the nineteenth century.

These men, who get it, have always existed.