Not all men

[AskBasil]

Interesting article here

annie totally, totally agree.

Although I believe it to be true that men will benefit from feminist liberation, it is no doubt true that a lot of men benefit from the continuation of the status quo and would prefer the contimation of the status quo.

All good reasons not to pander to men's feelings.

I agree, Buffy.

in total agreement with annie.

if men dont bother to look after their own kids and wash their own pants when asked nicely it seems unlikely that they are going to hand us a social revolution on a plate if we would just ask nicely enough and smile winningly.

men have been treating women outrageously for centuries. it is them who should be asking nicely. nicely and humbly asking us to continue to interact with them and to believe them when the say they want social justice for women despite many of their actions showing quite the opposite.

Agree with Annie's post at Tue 20-May-14 00:26:26. I'm done with "asking nicely". Even asking politely is thought of as aggressive. There is no winning. Fuck "nice".

But I'm always nice to you buffy.

Yes, this thread has been extremely hard for me to post on. It's not going to stop me from posting, though. And I don't think it should stop men from engaging when they can do that valuable 'yes, it's true' bit.

Kim-you say "The harsh reactions to posts on here by some posters really puts some people with different views off posting or engaging on here. In my opinion. It's a tough place to post if you have different views."

Can I ask you what you mean by "harsh"? Has anyone been harsh on this particular thread? Or could you give me an example of when it has happened? Because it's something that's often said, but I don't think I've event seen. And I wonder whether that's because I don't see it because I agree with the "harsh" people. Or whether it's because whenever a woman isn't smiley and compliant she is characterised as aggressive and confrontational. I just don't know.

Because men don't care about women's suffering. They really don't. They have been socialised to see women as "other", as inferior, and so they have been raised without any intrinsic empathy towards the position of women.

This is so true, and is why I doubt the efficacy of the liberal feminist program to 'educate' men about sexism. In order for men to care about sexism, they would first have to care about women as significant beings, and it's obvious that most of them don't.

men have been treating women outrageously for centuries. it is them who should be asking nicely. nicely and humbly asking us to continue to interact with them and to believe them when the say they want social justice for women despite many of their actions showing quite the opposite.

ITA with this. Seriously, the horrendous shit that men have been getting away with and still get away with all over the world in regards to women, who have done nothing to them but give birth to them, nurture them to adulthood and invest untold amounts of physical and emotional labour in their wellbeing, for them to turn around and say we're being unfair by demanding that they stop treating us like shit, just underlines the fact that they think we exist entirely for their gratification.

I've often wondered the same, Martorana.

Mmm. I've seen plenty of harshness on here.

I think it's partly because the topics are properly serious, and partly because we're trolled so much, you can walk into something without realizing you're accidentally aligning yourself with a poster everyone else has figured out is hairy-handed.

I think there's also a big issue that, in the main, the views many of us are expressing on this thread are ones we know would be mocked and undermined in most contexts. It only takes one poster to click on this as an active thread, wander in casually and think 'fuck, someone just claimed most men are violent! What the hell!' ... and to post it. That comes across as harsh, though I try to ignore it, because people aren't primed by the rest of the discussion to see the context. And often people don't even realize an active thread is in FWR.

So yes, I think there is harshness at times.

I want that placard!

I am still unconvinced about the harshness. I hope I haven't been. I know I have been forthright. But I do know that disagreeing often =harsh to some.

Eh, I dunno.

I think 'harsh' is the right response to a lot of the trolly shit we get on here, honestly.

I do remember being very new to this section and being shocked, and thinking 'how come someone has been so sarcastic to that nice man who just suggested that, in his personal opinion, women quite enjoy rough sex'. Because I wasn't even noticing that the troll was sitting there sniggering at a load of triggered women on a rape thread.

I guess what I'm saying is we all have to go through our wet-behind-the-ears stage somewhere and I went through mine here, though ...

LRD - I post here very occasionally and only when I really think I have a strong case for saying something.

Often that means I am disagreeing or making an uncomfortable point. As here on this thread which puts me at odds with most people.

Mostly though I just read a lot and the vast majority of the time I think 'yes I agree' or 'I didn't know that' or 'I'll think about that. Its mainly a place for women to swap experiences and offer support so I don't feel its my place to poke my nose in all the time.

I have a high threshold for joining in. Most men I think would.

I guess this goes back to your 'what can men do' question about agreeing.

Although I do take the point there is a value in this being quite female-dominated discussion which I'd be sad to see go, just because it's relatively rare on the net.

I suppose the risk of only posting to disagree is it comes across as if you think it's more important to do that than anything more supportive, even if the silence was intended as support.

I don't know about harshness, and I'm not aiming this at anybody in particular, but I have found that on here and in RL some people, not all, can come over all sensitive in the safety of their privileged cocoons but don't accord other people any right to be sensitive. I'm afraid if one has to put up with too much shit in RL then at some point one might be inclined to be "harsh" with some people ...

Yeah, that's what I meant but didn't put it as well.

I wonder if this is partly a socialisation thing? I've noticed when teaching that women are much more likely to bother to speak up in class simply to say 'I agreed with that'. It is interesting. And, just anecdotally, a class where there are murmers of 'oh, I agree ... oh, that's interesting' seems to do better overall, because people get the confidence to speak up more.

Whether that's generally true, and how it translates to an online situation, I don't know, but my impression is it's helpful.

upto - I think most of us can do that on a bad day. It's fairly natural.

What I do think is important, is being able to say to yourself you'll start again on a fresh thread. And ideally, I guess, acknowledge on the thread that you're pissed off. Because we do have a right to be pissed off, even with each other, sometimes. The alternative is a lovely feminine 'all feminists agree and stroke each other's hair' scenario, which I don't fancy.