Not all men

[AskBasil]

Interesting article here

So.... policing the words, not the meaning.

That really doesn't make sense to me.

What messages are you agreeing with, apart from equal pay? What words do you not agree with apart from the ones used in class analysis?

Being a feminist is really difficult, you know! Too difficult sometimes. That's why people start fiddling round the margins and saying things like "feminism is about choices- it's about women being able to do whatever they want." It isn't-but that way people can feel good about their lives without doing any of the heavy lifting

I've been reading this thread and it's often the little things men don't notice.
A couple of weeks ago in the car with DP and the (yes I know! ) Jeremy Vine show was on.
He played 'Ruby, don't take your love to town' and before one verse began JV quietly said....'Ah, the best verse coming up'.
The best verse was Kenny Rogers singing 'And if I could move I'd get my gun and put her in the ground,
Oh Ruby, don't take your love to town.'

I said to DP, Wow, so she's having an affair and it's ok for him to say he'd kill her if he could and JV thinks that's the best verse!
I think I was more pissed off by JV's comment than the actual song.

We talked about it later and as a man he had just never given those lyrics any thought before, he totally got it.

Jesus. That's properly creepy. I've never really listened to the words either.

But it's true, isn't it - loads of men get this stuff without it being a massive issue.

I just find it so wearisome when you say or point things out to men and they don't want to even consider that something might even be a bit offensive.
'Get over it, it's just a song'

I know a few men like this and they're mostly a bit thick.

50% of the population are below average intelligence.
On the whole they tend to have a lot of pressing things going on in their lives.
And quite frankly, would not understand some things, and other things that they do understand, they dont have enough time and energy including emotional energy to be able to do much. Does that sound reasonable?
Sometimes, when out, I people watch. And I think, no you couldnt and wouldnt do x y z.

kim147. Do you want to start a thread. Or you can pm me if you would like to.

BillAndTeds/CaptChaos* - its the sweeping generalisations that Feminism uses that treats men as a contiguous and homogenous group that bothers me. It really gets in the way of the message.

Matorana - yes I agree its not easy. Its too easy to shrug your shoulders (as a man) and say there is nothing I can do about it.

I just think Feminism needs to focus a bit more on getting men on side and challenging them to take specific supportive actions.

We only need 1 million men to sign the petition and stop buying the Sun until page 3 disappears. It would take 2 minutes to sign the petition and about a week of forgoing the Sun before page 3 was gone. The Sun editors would listen to what their readers said and especially if they stopped buying the paper until it changed. Not much effort from each individual man but a huge impact.

It would happen if we could persuade more men to just make that tiny effort.

kins you don't have to set time or money or effort aside to be a feminist. You don't have to campaign or do research. Just take on board anything you do read and hear (like the things said on this thread) and apply them to your own life in any way you see fit...and don't stand in the way of people who are researching, analysing and campaigning.

"I just think Feminism needs to focus a bit more on getting men on side and challenging them to take specific supportive actions."

Right. So why don't the men get on with that.........

its the sweeping generalisations that Feminism uses that treats men as a contiguous and homogenous group that bothers me. It really gets in the way of the message.

Not when you are looking at it from the point of view of women-as-a-class and men-as-a-class.

I also don't believe that 1 million men are going to suddenly think 'well, fuck me, Page 3 sucks, let's all go and sign this petition' no matter how bloody 'nice' feminists are. If men don't 'get' how things like Pg 3 affect how women are perceived by society despite facts, figures and sincere women pointing it out, nicely and otherwise, then I really don't think us re-framing women's oppression so that it's more palatable for them is going to change much. I might be wrong, but I doubt it.

I do get your point Martorana but also agree that men do need to be almost 'got on side', most men I know don't give feminism a second thought.

ManWithNoName - you say this; I am just questioning how some feminists choose to conveys the message - not the message.

When you do that questioning I hope that you also think about what those women might have been through that makes them "choose" to convey their message the way they do.

As I said before on this thread, the women's movement is remarkably peaceful considering what has been done to us and what continues to be done from us.

We had a thread on here a couple of years ago on which we shared our experiences of sexual assault and it was utterly sobering and despairing how many women had a story of sexual assault to share. And what was really sad about that thread was how so many of us minimized what had been done to us. Male violence against women is not rare. But it is minimized. We are expected to get on with it. And we do.

The anger that we feel and try to express is justified. A million times over.

And... really kinsorange?

I tend to try and listen to people's stories before judging them. Maybe my training helps me to do that?

What was your point about people being below average intelligence, and what does it add to this discussion? Sorry, I'm quite tired (long day at work) and I might be missing something.

It would happen if we could persuade more men to just make that tiny effort

Man the message is way, way out there, already. There are loads of different feminist saying things in loads of different ways. Some loud, some quiet, some sweet, some vicious. The problem is some/many/most men just don't care enough. You can't make them care by speaking in a different way.

The messages out there are getting to the ones who do care (loads of young women and girls as social media shows...and the dervels of the men). Modifying language won't suddenly make the rest of them care...if anything it'll make feminism look weak and insignificant.

Not I actually thinK the NAM issue is that big a deal. NAM isn't used by people who would otherwise be allies. If no feminist ever again said anything without a qualifier then derailment, attack and disagreement would still exist to the same level IMO.

"I do get your point Martorana but also agree that men do need to be almost 'got on side', most men I know don't give feminism a second thought."

What do you suggest?

Martorana - I think the problem is that 'nice' men:

a) don't realise what the issues are - they need it explaining in a way they can understand and will accept;

b) are not sure what to do - they need to be given specific actions; and

c) are uncomfortable piling into an issue that 'women own'.

Oh. Cross post.

I see that you don't think that women are doing enough to 'get men on side'.

Right.

Has it occurred to you that is isn't up to women to 'get men on side' ??

It is up to men to stop behaving inhumanely towards women.

Women, feminists and their language are not the problem. Men as a class are the problem. Period.

50% of the population are below average intelligence.

No, they aren't really.

The distribution is a bell curve with the peak on the average range. Lots of people score 100 - dead on average.

Besides which, isn't it uncomfortable to treat people as if they can't understand something so you'll give a 'nicer' version?

It would happen if we could persuade more men to just make that tiny effort.

Who does the 'we' in that sentence refer to?

Women have been trying to get men to make a tiny bit of effort for hundreds of years. We haven't got terribly far. I wonder why that is...?

They need to understand it.
I consider myself above average, and I struggle a lot.

I dont answer some of the replies on here, purely because I dont understand them.

I dont understand "The distribution is a bell curve" for instance,and that is just something in the last post.

"a) don't realise what the issues are - they need it explaining in a way they can understand and will accept;

b) are not sure what to do - they need to be given specific actions"

Are you serious?! Jesus, I thought feminists were supposed to be the man-haters!

But I realise I shouldnt and mustnt say what could be done better, so I am off again. Goodnight.
Sorry. I must learn to keep my mouth/postings shut. Will hide thread.

Oh no, I didn't misunderstand at all.

Google is your friend, as has been mentioned before.

I tend not to judge anyone just on their IQ, I find it slightly offensive that anyone would.

kins, I don't think it is about intelligence, really.

The concepts are simple.

It's hard to accept them, yes, but that's true of loads of things. I don't struggle with basic arithmetic now but I did when I was 5. If I'd been taught this stuff from age 5, I'm sure it'd be exactly the same.

What I mean by the bell curve is - the way intelligence is measured, most people are of average intelligence. Then, smaller numbers fall above and below average. So there's a peak, where most people are, and that's average. It's more uncommon to be either less than average intelligence, or more.

I firmly believe the vast majority of people are capable of understanding feminism in terms of the concepts. I don't see any evidence that the brighter you are, the more likely you are to accept it. There are a lot of very bright people who are very sexist, and there are plenty of people on MN, who have children whom they know to have severe learning difficulties, who've never heard a sexist word from those children.