Newnight report on brothels

[itshardthinkingofanickname]

Worth £16 billion in Germany. Legal to "make it safer".

Interview with 22 yr old Hannah. 6 men per night, earns 100 to 1000 euros per night,

Talking about should it be illegal in the UK and the fact that brothels are safer than the streets. They have super brothels in Germany.

Actually yes, deluded is too generous a way to describe punters- liars is much more accurate.

I see pepper has been deleted otherwhere for his charming post on the trafficking thread.

Bah, not deleted, but banned.

Banned is good though.

banned, yes. He deserves deleting for what he said on that thread. I might report it.

OK if we want semiotic analysis - the word 'delude' comes from playing a trick, so it's much the same as being a liar. Interesting that 'punters' are also called 'tricks'. It is a mutually consensual delusion.

I missed what he said on the trafficking thread. I do think people do mix trafficking with consensual prostitution. I read that poor woman's account and it's awful but it's not the same as voluntarily selling sex.

I see it as all part of the same industry migsy. Punters kid themselves that trafficked women are doing it voluntarily.

You can tackle the demand that feeds sex trafficking - the nordic model. Society telling men it's not ok to pay for sex.

That trafficked woman would have had to pretend she was doing the work voluntarily. She didn't have a sign on her head saying "I am trafficked". Literally, her life (and/or her child's life back home) would have depended on her giving the most convincing representation of being happy in her work so it didn't upset her Johns.

Buffy: "they are deluded that the women like them, see them as good guys, that they would spot a woman in real trouble (funny that none of them ever have, or at least never been motivated to do anything about it)." - absolutely. That's what's made my blood run cold - that there have been at least 2 punters on here who have said they've had young (19 year old student in one case) women clearly unhappy, nervous, not wanting to be there, but they've calmed them down (by letting them stroke the dog? WTAF?) THEN FUCKED THEM ANYWAY. And they still want us to believe they're the good guys. I've honestly felt sick reading some of the punter comments on this thread.

I agree Lurcio - it is either delusion or a spectacular failing in self-awareness. I think the last few punters genuinely thought they were painting a picture of themselves as good guys. Their description of the women crying or being nervous is supposed to demonstrate their good guy-ness. I think that until it was raised to them on this thread, they would not have given a moment's thought to the fact that they fucked them anyway and how far that is from normal, good guy behaviour.

Just listened to the discussion on R4. I reallly really hope that the powers that be make the right decision. I couldn't bear to live in a country like Germany which has hyper-brothels and sex booths at every roadside.

Delusion or deception, either way, trickery is involved, every woman who turns into a prostitute has been groomed for it in some way or another, whether by desperation or by normalising it.

State induced normalisation is just grooming on a massive scale.

And anyone who uses the 'oldest profession' argument as any kind of defence is completely deluded.

From what little I've engaged with the blokes who have posted on here I would venture to say that they are not even wrong. I'm with buffy.

Are the German feminists not doing anything? They don't seem to be very noisy about it - or have they all fallen for the 'consenting adults' line?

I haven't been in these boards for some time. Usually the prostitutes are never listened to by the feminists on here and it really gets to me that people who have no knowledge seem to know best.
The constant digs at those working in the sex industry is as soul destroying as the implication of being used, that we were all abused and the rest of the stereotypical assumptions made.
I earn my living as an escort, I did get a part time job last year but as a mixed race female I am also up against indirect discrimination within the workplace.
IMO it was better for me to be in control as an escort than belittled and tested like an idiot in the workplace.
Women should work together, not go in for the divide and conquer technique often used within our patriarchal society.
IMO the 'feminists' are far worse than the punters.
Some of you seem to expect us sex workers to be martyrs for your cause. We are mothers, sisters, daughters just like you. If we cannot make the world fair at least try to make it safe.
The economic turmoil we all face will get worse with more women choosing the industry as an option.
Why not start asking emitters why they are still not willing to provide working hours consistent with having children? There is a high proportion of HR people that are female, yet no one questions why women ate still sidelined for jobs

Ava I think your post sums up precisely what makes me deeply uncomfortable with the sex industry. I take it if the sexism (and racism) were not an issue in the conventional workplaces that would be your preferred choice?

I truly believe you are absolutely right in pointing out disparities in the workplace, and that is something that needs addressing immediately, that and wage imbalances between men and women doing the same job.

I'm not typing this with an agenda against you. Obviously your safety in whatever you choose to do IS a priority, and I weight your voice on the subject as more significant than those men who want to continue the status quo of their own entitlement, or for that matter my own as I am really not an authority in any way on this subject.

My question to you and if the is no answer that's fine I ask it because I can't square the circle on it myself. Is there a way to prioritise your safety and others like you, and at the same time dismantle this state of a affairs where people are objectified?

I've said before on other threads I don't have a problem with the sale of sex in principle, but given the state of affairs as they currently stand I am reluctant to green light the practice wholesale for the misgivings I outlined above.

' yet no one questions why women ate still sidelined for jobs'

Sorry but it's not true that no-one questions it. Inequality in the workplace is a major area of feminist activism.

Ava, I am sorry that you feel you are sidelined on MN. I don't agree though. I have seen many examples of women working in the industry treated with respect here. On this very thread a prostitute has been part of an ongoing debate and she has been received sensitively by feminists. Not so much listened to by the Punters though. When she recieved an abusive PM it was rightly denounced as out of order. In general, the feminist stance on here is opposed to the men who use the sex industry, not the women who work within it.

horsetowater wrote - "Are the German feminists not doing anything?

Some German feminists are campaigning against the current legalisation of prostitution in Germany. For example, the German feminist magazine "Emma", which features a comparison of the German and Swedish approaches to prostitution in its current issue.

The people of the German island of Sylt objected to the proposed opening of a brothel on their island and their campaign to stop it was successful.

Manuela Schwesig is the vice-chairwoman of the SPD party. Three months ago, she was appointed the German Federal Minister of Family Affairs, Senior Citizens, Women and Youth. She is very critical of the current German law on prostitution.

Four months ago, one of the ruling parties (the CSU) adopted policies of raising the age of consent for sex workers to 21 years old, punishing the buyers and tightening trafficking laws.

People who oppose the Nordic Model often say that there are anti-trafficking laws that can be used to help prostitutes who are not in prostitution "by choice". Some German law enforcement officials have been complaining recently that anti-trafficking laws are being hampered by the legalisation of prostitution in Germany.

Even if Germany does not adopt the full Nordic Model, there seem to quite a few German politicians and law enforcement people across the political spectrum who think that the current legalisation of prostitution is not acceptable. They are campaigning to make Germany less of a haven for pimps and punters.

In response to Derval I question whether the polarised views on prostitution are damaging to the safety of sex workers.
I lucky in the respect that my friends and family know what I do, I don't have to hide it. But in wider society there is someone always willing to judge a sex worker so perhaps their concerns aren't voiced unless through forums such as saafe.
Open discussion and actually taking the opinions of a range of sex workers and punters, get it in the public domain without glamorising it or reverting to the usual stereotypes may help all round.
There are very respectful punters out there, who in all h
If no one knows what you do no one can look out for you. Allowing women to work together would help as it would give the power back to some women as brothels IMO tend to be run by men.
A recent article in people managemnet on diversity was interesting and slightly depressing. The problem with legislation is that it doesn't change people's minds. Indirect discrimination can be very hard to prove especially if you've not been in a job long.
In my working life I have had one decent job and two decent employers out of 10+.
Having children put the kibosh on my career, and I took jobs for extra income not 'career' moves.
I am at college studying HR, whether I get a job in it remains to be seen, I worry may be stuck doing a dead end job for the rest of my life.
I'm an intelligent person and I cannot bear to be under utilised in the work place or treated like an idiot.
Having a depressing job is for me far worse than being a prostitute. I've sat at my desk on previous jobs and cried as I feel my brain cells draining away.