Newnight report on brothels

[itshardthinkingofanickname]

Worth £16 billion in Germany. Legal to "make it safer".

Interview with 22 yr old Hannah. 6 men per night, earns 100 to 1000 euros per night,

Talking about should it be illegal in the UK and the fact that brothels are safer than the streets. They have super brothels in Germany.

[VivianStanshall]

I didn't realise it was, I never visit particular sections I just look at Active Threads.

And I didn't just want to post and run.

[LurcioLovesFrankie]

Hi Migsy, hope you won't think I'm speaking out of turn by saying this... but I lurked on the other thread you were on, and you come across as a really brave, articulate and strong woman who deserves a hell of a lot more than the shitty hand life has dealt you. And it's precisely because I'd like to work towards a society which offered more to women collectively as a group (rather than just lucky women who are educated and middle class) that I support the Swedish model. As I say, I hope I'm not putting my foot in it, but I'm trying to explain why someone might listen to what you have to say, and accept that you speak from a position of first hand experience, and still disagree with you.

[VivianStanshall]

I wasn't playing devil's advocate and my more limited approach of wanting an existing problem to be fixed now rather then waiting until the whole of society is reshaped as you desire it is the the right one IMO.

After one thread where people didn't understand where I was coming from and I realised it was because they thought I was a woman and it was odd for a woman to be saying that, which diverted the thread until I said I was a bloke then it got back on track, I tend to drop it in where it's likely to be of relevance. So not on a telly thread for instance.

[VivianStanshall]

Last post:

Yes, I do see it as a series of specific problems that can be fixed by regulation.

And: No, I do not agree with the Nordic model because I do not agree that between consenting adults it should be a criminal offence for either party.

[JuliaScurr]

the vocal minority of 'sex workers' who choose to do it is dwarfed by the huge silenced majority who get into it unwillingly via abusive childhood, drug addiction etc

I'm interested in control of men's behaviour with a clear aim of representing the interests of that majority

[JuliaScurr]

consent is hugely compromised in a situation of massive inequality

[LaurieFairyCake]

If you take out the addicts, the ones who were groomed and abused as children, the trafficked, the women who are so poor they can't make money any other way are you then left with about 3 women who 'freely consent' to randoms strangers cocks?

Yep. And I think 3 is being fucking generous.

'Consent' is irrelevant. - it means precisely fuck all in a world where women can't make enough money to live without renting out orifices to random strangers.

[GarlicLeGrenouille]

Criminalising the buyers - rather than the sellers - will at least have the effect of making men think a little bit about the act, as it does when purchasing recreational drugs or unlicensed firearms, for example. It also removes the ludicrous semi-legal status of prostitution.

When trafficked slaves are discovered in the UK, many of them end up being subjected to imprisonment, prosecution and even deportation. Everyone agrees this is hideously wrong: the guilty parties are not the slaves, but their importers and those who use them. Similar problems beset forced drugs carriers.

I don't want to draw a direct parallel here between free prostitutes and slaves, though of course many are used as prostitutes. My point is, rather, that in punishing the service providers we do nothing to restrain demand for that service.

Why is it desirable to restrain it? Loads of reasons, including the fact that it perpetuates demand for forced sex workers. More generally, it normalises the idea that men purchase sex & 'intimacy', thus harming wider spheres of gender relationships. Plus, it blurs the distinction between women who are promiscuous for fun and those who do it just for money. The twilight status of using prostitutes supports numerous false moral judgements, all of which fall upon women ... and gay men.

[GarlicLeGrenouille]

YY re 'consent', Laurie. I'd consent to shoplift for profit if I were starving. Doesn't mean I'm happy to do it.

[GarlicLeGrenouille]

Vivian, what's wrong with finding a consenting sex partner you don't have to pay?

[KerryKatonasKhakis]

'consenting adults' is a problematic phrase regarding the issues around prostitution, Vivian. Does being affected by poverty, desperation, coercion, trafficking, drug-dependence, past abuse, MH issues etc. mean a prostitute can ever truly consent? And for the minority that enter the industry with non of the issues mentioned, their work contribute to the oppression of women which directly effects me (and every other woman and indirectly, men).

This is not an industry that should be legitimised and legalised. Shme on you for suggesting the government should be making tax off the mistreated of women.

I agree with Buffys posts entirely.

[vesuvia]

VivianStanshall wrote "I think legalising it and controlling will put an end to the steady stream of murdered prostitutes that happen because the illegality of prostitution means the women have to put themsleves at risk."

Unfortunately, legalisation doesn't put an end to the murder of prostitutes. For example, a report about the murder of a Latvian prostitute and her 2-year-old daughter in Germany.

[vesuvia]

A Guardian article about trafficking of women forced to work as prostitutes in Germany:
www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/24/hells-angels-members-arrested-mallorca.

[HavantGuard]

From what I've read legalizing prostitution actually increases trafficking.

[CaptChaos]

I used the term prostituted women advisedly. I am well aware of what it Meagan's, but thanks for mansplaining it to me.

[CaptChaos]

*means.... Means for the love of God!

Bloody iPad and it's random word changes

[FloraFox]

I'd like the discussion around prostitution to take a break from talking about "rights" and "consent" in a context where the rights of the men and women are exercised in extremely different contexts. How about some consideration of our obligations? Like our obligation not to exploit another person's vulnerability or desperation? Our obligation not to make becoming a fuck receptacle a condition to survival? Our obligation to raise women's real power rather than banging on about how they are empowered by selling their autonomy?

[NiceTabard]

report on BBC here so can read their take + link to newsnight piece

here

What struck me was that the woman they interviewed said she could earn between €100 and €1000 a night and IIRC the male interviewer immediately said right so you can earn €1000 a night. Which is obviously a big sum but why did he focus on that immediately rather than the €100 figure.

[NiceTabard]

Oh I saw it last night BTW hence being vague, had wine and not watched the piece again.

I don't know how to comment really.

I support the swedish model.

We know that with increased exposure & normalisation, barriers get moved more & more. So eg standard porn now, is what was considered pretty hardcore a couple of decades ago. eg where a man my father's age might have bought sex, it was something to be kept quiet and was not considered OK, so many men didn't. Which they will, if it's just a fine normal thing to do like going to the pub or buying a newspaper or whatever. Look to the scottish study for evidence about how potential consequences deter men from purchasing sex. And obviously if it's all fine and usual, many more men will do it. And for those who develop a taste for more extreme acts, women will still need to be trafficked in.

It all just seems clear to me. I don't think the average man has any idea of how it is to grow up female. The man upthread for eg. when asked of he had "thought about how it feels" thought about it from the POV of a person who would be buying and was "well meh I can take it or leave it" or whatever. Women and girls are coming from a very different position. Of being subjected to all sorts of aggressive male sexual behaviour from when they are young. I have been offered money for sex twice. Lots of women I know have been curb crawled. If I had been skint / homeless / wanted some money, maybe I'd have said OK. That is not consent. In all other things in our society I have plenty of privilege. Yet men still think they can but me to fuck. As they think is their right? What's the harm in asking? Well LOTS FFS. Puts you in your place, for a start. And that's how I feel as someone who didn't need / have to say well OK then and do it.

Anyway sorry for ramble.

Normalising paid sex (which is enormously men fucking women, less often men fucking men, or men fucking children) is just not positive for society in any way.

[NiceTabard]

Sorry for typos.

[CaptChaos]

When the use of prostituted women becomes normalised within a group this is the kind of thing which results.